Designing Communities, Not Just Buildings: Architecture & Legacy with Vince Haines | Ep 15

All right, here we are. Thanks for hanging out. You bet. Thanks for the invite. You made the big drive over here, about two city blocks of El Dorado. Yeah, two minutes-ish. Two minutes, yeah. Because of the stop sign. Yeah, right, yeah. You just gotta roll on through. All right, man, well, let's get going. I'm Samuel McVeigh with Killer Growth, the Killer Growth podcast, I guess. And this is Vince Haynes with Gravity Works. And we'll start real easy, and you've heard some of the episodes, so I like to hear from college, and you can throw in little backstories, if you want, from college, to what brought you to where you're at today. Wow, how far you wanna go? I would say you go with your gut. I am an architect, and I've been a principal of the firm since 2000. But before that, born and raised in El Dorado, sometime in Benton, when my dad was principal at Circles. But born and raised here, and I had no idea, architecture was not on my mind when I was in high school. Actually, being an auto mechanic was on my mind when I was in high school. And so my buddies, going to college was just something that was out there. My buddies were doing it, so I guess I'll do it too. And of course, I said auto mechanic, so mechanical engineering sounded cool. Makes sense. So I got into pre-engineering at Butler, and I had no idea what I was getting into. But a part of that, in the math classes were not what I was expecting. Sure. But part of that was a drafting class. I didn't have drafting class in high school. We had a pretty good drafting program in high school, but I just wasn't there. Didn't even take art class. My extracurricular activities were band and basketball and play and C meant you were done. Sure. C was average and that was okay. Yeah. That was just kind of got through high school. I had quite frankly, enjoyed it. But in a drafting class, I got introduced to architectural drafting. And then we also got introduced to a, got exposed to a trade school for architectural drafting. And then I packed up and something, that sounds kind of cool. Computers were just coming on. This was 1986. Wow. 85 is when I graduated. So 86 is when I think packed up and left to go. I packed up and left to go down there and meet another buddy from high school. We went to Phoenix, Arizona. And it was a year and a half program on architectural drafting, board drafting. And in six months of computer drafting, which was mainframe drafting. Everybody had a cursor key, no mouse, no nothing. It was early stuff. Wow. So a year and a half of that in Phoenix. Came back home after that, looked for a job. And didn't, 80s was kind of tough in that market. A lot of markets. But John Prigmore here in town, somebody told me that he was, I knew of John, went to church with him, but he was always an elder in the church. And I was a young, playing around. And so I knew him, but I didn't know him. Sure. He learned that I was looking and had a drafting degree, reached out to me. He was busy. And interesting, I remember that conversation because he said, he just called on the phone and he said, well, told me a little bit about what I was doing and who I was. And he said, well, just come on in and let's talk. So the interesting thing about that is I never thought it was an interview. He just said, come in and talk. Just come hang out. So all the stress of, why don't you come in and interview was not there. I just sat down and we talked. And at the end of the talk, he said, he offered me a job. And I went, wow, I didn't know that's what I was here for. Nailed it. So that would be the summer of 88. And so you moved back and you weren't working yet. You just weren't working yet. I just finished school and came home. Okay. Yeah. Couple of months working with John. John and Mac Allen kind of dawned on me that, hey, what they're doing is pretty cool. Instead of just drafting, an architect looks pretty cool. So I made that decision. John obviously is a K-State grad and he promoted K-State heavily. I got enrolled at K-State because that's where he said I should go. I'm up there walking around in freshman orientation. I have a place to live. I'm ready to go. And this is August of 88. I tell you, I'm walking around campus and I'm going, I'm not excited about being here. It just didn't feel right. So I came home and back, that was back when course books, there were course books. Wasn't online, nothing online. Right, right. So I got K-State's book and KU's book and just compared them side by side. And the course numbers were even the same. Course titles were even the same. Both programs had, both schools had schools of architecture. So I was, and I had worked with John long enough and worked with consulting engineers enough in those three months that I kind of, the tipping point for me was at K-State, the engineering courses were in the school of architecture. They had ARC numbers, course numbers to them. At KU, the engineering courses were in the school of engineering. They had E and G numbers to them. So in my mind, I thought if I'm gonna learn engineering, I'm gonna learn it from the school of engineering, not the school of architecture. That was my justification for going where my heart wanted to go anyway. Right, that's what I was gonna ask. What was the big draw to KU for you personally? You know, it started out just being a fan, but it was just, it just felt good being there. Yeah. And you know, that's one of the things I told all of our children. We have two of ours went to K-State, one to WSU and then Adam went to KU. I said, you go where you wanna be because you're gonna pack up and move there. Yeah. You've gotta want to be there. Half of going to college is learning about yourself. Yeah. And so anyway, I did that. Best decision I made, I had great classmates. The architectures training program or education program is like a fraternity sorority. You're 24 hours a day sometimes for days on end getting projects done. I don't think it's any harder than most curriculums up there but it's time consuming. Yeah. I really enjoyed it. Great, like I said, great students or great classmates and we still stay in touch and so that was good. So graduated in the 94. John didn't give any pushback at all when I decided to do that. I laid out another semester and went to Butler for a while and then up to KU a year later and five-year program and here we are. Yeah. John didn't dangle a carrot to come. He always talked about my interest in coming back but he didn't try and convince me to come back. Looking back, he was in his 60s which he's about to turn 100 by the way. That's crazy. Yeah. That's awesome. He was in his 60s and he was almost my age now when I was there and I'm thinking, yeah, he was probably looking for a way out. Sure. And he wasn't pushing it on me but he was certainly inquiring about my interest about coming back and he's just staying inquisitive and staying in touch. But yeah, and then I expressed an interest and he said, yeah, I dangled a carrot. I came home. We moved. My wife and I, I got married when I was in college. We moved home. Melody's from El Dorado also. Born and raised, not born here but raised here. Yeah. And so yeah, I made the decision to come back to El Dorado and take over GravityWorks with some business partners at the time. Yeah. Now David Stewart and I. How many partners were there at that time? We had, the maximum number of partners was four. We used to have an office in Newton and the two partners we had in Newton, one had a life change and wanted to relocate to Colorado so off he went and the other one retired so we closed the Newton office and David and I. Us four, those four took over from John in 2000. Okay. Crazy. Yeah. So 2000, so you were employed by John from? I'm gonna say 88 to 2000. Okay. But full time out of school from 94 to 2000. Okay. And I couldn't take over ownership until I had passed a registration exam, licensing exam which is a week long intimidating exam that I don't know what it is today but back then it was take a week off and go take a test. Literally it was almost a full week long days of tests. And once I passed that, first thing out of John's mouth was, so I passed that in like fall of 99 because there's an internship and there's a certain things you've got to do to qualify to take the exam and some of it's work experience and documentation and all the like and it usually takes about three years to do that. Yeah. And as soon as I passed it, John said, okay, let's start talking about changing in January 2000. He's ready. The funny thing about a little serendipity to that and this is really kind of weird but I really like this part of the story. John's architectural license is number 446. So he was- And is that by state or? That's by state. So he was the 446th architect in Kansas. Wow. To be licensed. That's cool. Mine, when I got it, I read it and it says, well, my license is 4462, 4462. There you go. I thought, oh, this is weird. That's weird and that's a really big jump. Yeah, no, I mean, I'm 4,462. But no, that was, I just, that's kind of a neat part of that whole story. Yeah, that is cool. That's awesome. Yeah, awesome human. I can't believe he's about to turn 100. This weekend is his birthday party. Wow. Is he doing well? Health-wise, is he doing okay? Yeah, he still lives on his own and very independent. Yeah. Good for him. Sharp guy, and he'll tell you his memory's failing, but I'll still call him about past projects because he remembers that. He remembers them. Indeed, he does. So let's just talk about architecture, I guess. What is the architectural role of a project? I mean, I think we all think of it as a design, but that process, I think a lot of people don't really know. I didn't know, I think, until I got to know you and David, ultimately, what your role was. And I think the first time I actually learned what you guys do and what your role was was doing the construction cleanup job with Good to Be Clean at the middle school. So we got that under that contractor and we dealt with David all the time, funny enough. He would be out there while we were doing those projects, doing some inspections and different things. But I think it'd be interesting to know what was the role like 30 years ago and does it look any different 30 years later? 30 years ago, generally speaking, the role of the architect is we're problem solvers and we do it with the built environment. And designing and architecture likes to, we like to call it, it's art and science. There's the science of building and the art of designing and merging the two into a functional environment, whether that be an outdoor environment, an indoor environment, those kind of things. So that's the academic side of all of it. And that's kind of the artistic lure of why do you be an architect, right? Yeah. And then there's the professional practice of it, which is taking that and molding that into the code of ethics of being an architect and the professionalism of dealing with people and relationships and getting things done. But really, it kind of boils down to, is we design the spaces and the spatial interactions and the aesthetics of a building. And then when it turns to time to get it constructed, and we're also working with and helping the client understand and manage budget while we're doing that. So it's simultaneous. We're not divining a zacum and saying, oh, well, this is what you want, how much does it cost? No, we have to know what their threshold of budget is while we design. So we're constantly back and forth talking with our construction partners about constructability and ideas. And we understand, looking back on historical data on what type of building, what construction types cost. Yeah. Stuff like that. And what are the constraints associated with a site? What's it costing? I mean, money is a big part of it. Designing within that parameters of what the project can bear. So getting it through that, that's kind of the artistic side of it. And then moving it into the details. Our services are kind of broken up into five phases. And this goes back to, this is historic. Schematic design, the big idea. Design development, which is taking the big idea and making it more reality. Knowing that the big idea can work. Okay. Construction documents, which is the nuts and bolts and when you hear somebody say blueprints, that's construction documents. That is all the details, all of the minutia associated with how a building goes together. We found the construction documents, interesting enough, David found them in this building. Oh yeah, this one. For us, yeah, this building, which was, and he just looked like a kid in a candy store. We had no idea what he was looking at, but he was just like, oh, oh! And he just pulled through those papers. This building you're in is one of the most iconic in the region, in my opinion, of modern architecture. And the era it was built and the way, and the materials it's built out of. And John didn't do this building. Yeah, I was trying to think of the name. He knew the guy, though. I mean, you would know who it is. It'll come to me, because the same architect, the editor at the time. Clymer. Clymer, Clymer. Also, I think, was the owner and original developer of the Heritage House. Oh, okay, which would make sense. And the same architect for that. Yeah. John knew him. I mean, they knew each other. But no, this building here has got some real quintessential modern detailing. It's a neat building. Yeah, yeah, and he helped us out a ton and helped us with the structural engineer connection. And we had to cut some things that the building, if we cut them wrong, the building falls down. Yep. It's all this rebar, it's all concrete. It's all concrete. Yeah. It's called a waffle slab, yep. And then he explained the anchors, because this also was a fallout shelter. So he was able to show us on the construction documents how far those pillars go down into the soil, into other pillars. It's like, this pillar goes down and then there's a pad, then there's another pillar, and it was, so yeah, that's the first time I've seen someone read construction documents. That is the blueprints or construction documents. And at that point, I kind of like to think about it as we're telling a story on how to build it. Right, that makes sense. We're giving it, it's graphic, and there's also a spec book that goes with it. Sometimes they're an inch thick or more or two inches thick of written instructions on how to do that and what materials to use and that kind of thing. So they go hand in hand, but we are really graphically detailing the instructions on how to build a building, on what to build. So foundations and structural steel and all of that stuff. So that was four. That's three. Or three, sorry. Four is what's called bidding and procurement, which is, once the construction documents are, and this is kind of a traditional means, once the construction documents are done, and we've, through all that, been trying to keep track of budget also, then it's out to bid. Let's find somebody to build it. Yep. So we would manage that procurement and who bids on it and their qualifications, and that's where the relationship with the construction industry is vital. And then after that, it's called contract administration. We're not construction administrators. We're the designers, not the constructors. And so we're not in charge of means and methods and getting it done. This is just, at the end of the day, this is how it needs to be done. And that is, contract administration is basically overseeing the contractor to make sure that they're building it the way the design documents are detailed. And there's a lot of questions back and forth and a lot of on-site meetings to kind of overlook and say, okay, this is how I drew it. This is what I expected. Is that what we're finding? Okay. Sometimes there's, when you unearth the foundations, you maybe found something that you didn't know was there. Right. Or some things like that. That's part of construction. And we stay engaged through all of that. Asking, answering questions and being, staying engaged in that. Yeah. From the best projects, most fun projects, was the initial idea all the way to ribbon cutting. Oh yeah, man. And a handshake when you're done. Yeah. We did it. Yeah, I mean, some of those projects, I'm sure, go for a long time. I don't know how long those schools took. And BG Stadium, some big ones that you've been a part of. The stadium went fast. And that was a really fun project to do. That's one of my favorites. I mean, it's hard to say I've got a favorite, but that's up there just because of all of the, it had a lot of moving parts early and whether or not it was gonna go or not. And it had a big vision behind it. And it had community leaders and players step in and out of the process at the right time to keep the momentum going. Excuse me. So it was a fun project. And then we took field trips. We went to, we took field trips to try and get an idea of what would be a good solution. The challenge was to build something that was big enough for the college, but not too big for the high school. Makes sense. And because the idea early on was every football game from Little League to the college in Eldorado was gonna be played on that field. That was how it was promoted to the public. And because it went for some, we had a public campaign for public donations. And that was its genesis. I mean, everything's here. This is it. So we took field trips actually to the Dallas, Texas area looking at high school stadiums. Which are probably big stadiums. Which are 40,000 seat stadiums. This one is six. Crazy. So it was, yeah, it was an eye opener down there for sure. But I'm sorry. Oh, you're good. Yeah. That was an eye opener for sure. Yeah, I bet. What project have you been a part of that best depicts or exemplifies GravityWorks design and abilities? Do you have a project that is, you look at that and you say, this is kind of what GravityWorks is all about? Wow, I don't know that I can put that in one. Yeah, yeah. I would say it was projects that have long-term client relationships and repeat clients. The college is one. We've enjoyed always coming back and doing work at the college. It's the projects that you build relationships and they'll come back to you. Makes sense. So instead of it being a specific project, it's more like a client. The ideal client. Yeah, and we have, you know, we were kind of, our, we're based on repeat clients. Yeah. We certainly have to go and always get, seek new work. But we have lived, our bread and butter has been repeat clients. Yeah. Which says a lot about your process and abilities. Relationships are important. Relationships and trust. Because you think about it, like the schools, for example. I mean, we were really excited about doing Circle and Eldorado Schools in our backyard. Yeah. And our alma maters. And, you know, those were, between all of the Circle and Eldorado Schools, that was close to $140 million worth of work, of construction on us. Right. Construction. Right. But, so I kind of used the phrase and I really kind of embraced it. You're trusting us to be good stewards with your money. For sure. We want something that's aesthetically pleasing, but we also want schools that go well past. Yeah. Well in the future and also designed for some growth. And both of those efforts absolutely built some growth into it. What's the difference between a structural engineer and an architect at its core? Sure, good question. I think architect has to have a strong understanding of how a building goes together. What are the structural components? What are structural capacities, materials? So we make those choices based off, make those design choices based off of that. And the difference is we know a beam needs to go there. A structural engineer tells us what size the beam needs to be. Makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. Gets more into the weeds of actual load bearing and all that. Same for electrical engineers. So our partners in a building, building a design or the architect is lead, structural engineer, mechanical engineer doing HVAC systems, making sure air changes and air qualities are right and that kind of stuff. That's all a math. Electrical engineer, making sure that your electrical capacities are there and proper and circuitry is right and all of that. And a civil engineer, sometimes for exterior and site, when it's a large site project. So it takes a civil engineer. The plumbing falls under mechanical? Plumbing falls under mechanical. Mechanical. So making sure the proper water pipe sizes and that kind of stuff. Yeah. Interesting. What's the biggest change you've seen in architecture over the last 20, 30 years? Technology. Yeah. What's the biggest? Hands down, technology is the biggest change. I started, I was kind of thinking about that leading into this. When I started, it was all hand drawing. In my training at KU, it was all hand drawing. We had a computer lab, but it was 20 computers and there were 60 of us in school. So take a number and maybe you'll do it. And will the plotter plot all night long to do what she had to do? Because nobody, there was no, it was all early technology that wasn't very reliable. So we just did it all by hand. Hand sketching, hand renderings, markers, colored pencils, watercolors. All that was a part of our presentation techniques and doing it. Pen and ink, pencil on vellum. And you actually put watercolors on for like the visuals. Yeah, I never really got very good at watercoloring. I kind of gravitated towards markers and pen and ink, but you learn your talent and your craft and it's really about how you learn how to do, to display your ideas because you're trying to sell an idea. Right, that's what I was gonna say. There's probably, I mean, I'm assuming some were better artists than others. Absolutely. Some were actually better architects, but some were better artists. You're spot on. Yeah, spot on. There were some really good artists and that they, yeah, just spot on. Yeah. They're great artists and good architects because they're not, and sometimes there's a good artist that's an architect. Yeah, sure. And that was the unicorn. But I was adequate enough to do well. Yeah. And, but, so I started with John, pencil and paper. And then we, I was there a year and a half and we started making the transition to CAD. CAD had moved to personal computers and not big mainframe stuff. Right. It was more affordable for smaller firms to jump into. So 90, well, 95, 96, we made the jump, the move to CAD. John never did. Yeah. He stayed on the board and that was it. Old dog, not learning a new trick. Yeah. So we did that. And so AutoCAD and, I mean, all of the 2D CAD software. And then 2010-ish, the 3D software started coming out. And then, so that has, that changed things. Man, and that's probably changed a lot since 2010. And that has changed exponentially. Client expectations to see something in a more of a realistic rendered format. So that's another thing that's changed in the practice is expectations out of the client. Yeah. On what they see. It's pretty funny. This would have been in the 90s, or no, this would have been when 3D was just kind of hitting the scene. I had a client meeting and we're going over drawings and then they were in 2D format, but they were CAD drawings. And he said, well, what's it look like? What's, do you have a rendering of it? I said, well, I can do that. He says, well, you mean you don't just have a 3D button? I just thought, clients and the understanding of what it takes to get there. I said, yeah, there is a 3D button. They're about 10,000 and they're in sequence. Right, right, yeah. Yeah, I could totally see that. Tori, you've gotten to a point probably now where depending on the project, like when it's serious enough, they have to see. Yeah, depending on the project timeframe and the need and the client too, whether or not they need to see something a little more in 3D or in rendered form. So on the CAD-ing, like the AutoCAD side, you have people that still do CAD. On your behalf, you and David, the architects, because you said you did the CAD side, then became an architect. So traditionally and today, is that still two separate roles? Someone's doing the CAD, like take me through that process. In our firm, I still do a fair amount of drawing, drafting and drawing. And actually, I still, just because it's the way my brain's trained, I still do a lot of it by hand, the early stuff by hand. Hand it over to our CAD technicians and they digitize it or I sometimes, well, I'll do a lot of CAD work myself. And a little bit of 3D work. I haven't stopped to completely train myself there yet, but because we have the CAD tech supports that do that. So David and I, we're still pretty involved in the drawing process, just because of the size of our firm and we like doing it. Larger firms, yes, it gets pretty segregated quickly about an architect is sometimes an arm waver, a dreamer, or managing the nuts and bolts. And it kind of depends back to your early comment about whether the architect was an artist or. Right. So you kind of hone in on your, learn your strengths and then you become a project manager in terms of the design side or a project manager in terms of the construction side. And so in the larger firms, you get a little more compartmentalized, if you will. Yeah. But they still work in, larger firms still, we are kind of a microcosm of a larger firm. They even will call their design team studios. So there is an innate sense, I think, to stay collaborative in what we do, no matter if they kind of see that in a larger, small firm. Yeah. Well, what are the advantages of being a smaller firm? Diversity. I think we are not specialized in any one thing, but that's been kind of what I've enjoyed about our practice is that we've done stuff inside the refinery, which is nitty gritty, get the work done stuff. We've done something as fun as the stadium or the schools. We've done a couple of really nice smaller projects that, I mean, the scale of projects and the diversity projects is what I like about what we do. But talk about buried entry, people becoming architects today. What does that look like? What would be your advice? Someone's going to become an architect today and they want to own their own firm. Wow, I'm not sure I know. Right, yeah. Because I did it so long ago. What does the landscape look like right now? Is that happening? I'm assuming like in any professional industry, trade industry, right? A plumber leaves to start his own plumbing company. A architect that works for a firm might go off on his own. Is that still the traditional, that's usually where it happens? Yeah, architect by state and national statute, you've got to be a licensed architect before you can start your own business. So you've spent some time somewhere gaining that experience to do that so that you can qualify for the exam and there you go. The exam is now broken apart. So I think you can take some of it earlier and some of it late depending on your experience level. So they have kind of broken that down a little bit instead of it being this big intimidating, you know, at the end of a, light at the end of the road. So, it still, it still takes a, it still takes a degree from an accredited institution. KU and K-State both are. And they're around the country. Sure. And most programs now have moved to a master's degree programs to the bachelor's degree. Mine was a bachelor's, but they have now kind of elevated it to a master's degree level. It's still five or six years, no matter what. I mean, it's because studios and the courses are sequential. You don't go to the next one until you pass this one. And it just takes five years to do that. Yeah. So, so that's still there. There's still the experience level and exam to do that. And then whether or not you stay in a larger organization as a licensed architect, as on staff, or strike out on your own. Or become a partner where you're at. Or yeah, become a partner where you're at. That kind of thing. Yeah. I wonder just if the barrier to entry, that just seems really difficult. I mean, there's a lot of industries that probably be difficult to get into. But that, I mean, that probably requires a ton of trust. You probably have to be somewhere for a while. Have to be somewhere for a while. To have that opportunity and have enough connections and network. And yes, to strike out on your own takes clients. Right. And clients takes relationships and exposure and trust. Yeah. And trust. Yeah. So I was, yeah, that's still, it's still not an easy thing to do. We're seeing, I think, fewer smaller firms. I'm kind of seeing a trend of larger firms gaining momentum. Yeah. Right now. And I think that will ebb and flow, to be honest. Because I know that that was the case years ago too. And then it kind of spread out. Yeah, I wonder with technology if that, does technology level the playing field? Or does technology crush the small guy? Because I feel like technology's getting more accessible. There's no way around that. To your point, right? It all of a sudden became accessible to the small guy to have AutoCAD. So that probably, maybe that was a little bit of a uprising. I don't know if that attributed to the small guy growing. I think that's a double-edged sword. In a lot of cases, yes, technology levels the playing field. In some other cases, the technology changes so fast that somebody who's trying to run a firm and a business and a relationship and technology, it's hard to keep up with it. Yep. So larger firms can dedicate personnel that that's what you do. Stay on the cutting edge. You stay on the cutting edge. So a firm like ours, we've done our best to stay, I mean, we're there. We're trying to stay on, use the term, we're staying on the cutting edge, not the bleeding edge. There you go. So we certainly have all those resources, but we have to be, it's good partnerships that do it. Do you see AI changing the aspect of what you guys do yet? Yeah. Has it come into play? I use AI in a research mode. AI is there in a design mode. I'd assume, yeah, yeah. Depending on, I mean, it'll produce renderings of a project and produce half a dozen of them based on your descriptor in short order, but it's not doing plan layout yet, stuff like that. That's like the- It is and it isn't. I mean, you can also, it's, yeah. I use it as a research tool. It has changed and it really sped up the code research and some spec research and some other kind of material research for me, for us. You talk about the one, the client saying one button, like just hit that one button. So we're not to one button, but I'm assuming in the next, you know, ever, maybe the next five years, you're gonna be a 2D one button. We're not to one button, but we're almost into one long paragraph descriptors. Yeah, there you go, yeah, yeah. Yeah, for sure. I mean, at this point, some of the stuff that we play around with mimics, like the original build would be tough, verbalizing and talking like in that world, that's got so many layers, but- Yeah, it does. But again, yeah, it's come a long ways in a year. It's crazy where it's at in a year now. I'm sure the software world, do you guys get pitched with new and upcoming software regularly in your industry, like at conventions or newsletters? You know, not so much anymore. Early, you know, in the 90, when CAD software was first getting started, yes, but not so much anymore. We've chosen a software that it's Mac-based, which was unique in the industry, quite frankly, most of it's DOS or Windows-based, but it's Mac-based and it actually does 2D and 3D drafting simultaneously. So as we draw something in 2D and think in 2D, we can assign Z values to it and it's doing it and it all kind of also assign layers and Z values to the layer. I mean, it goes on and on and on, but the software we have, and it's not unique to the industry, it's just the one we're running with, it does, you hear it's from Revit. Revit, it's the same thing, it was AutoCAD-based. Our software is called Vectorworks and it's a same kind of same thing, except it's just different software company. And it is, yes, it is allowing us to draw on 2D and 3D simultaneously. That's awesome. What's the transition look like for you and David now? You're not spring chickens anymore. You still got time, but what's that look like in your industry, I guess? You told a story, is that how most of these continue? Is someone within the organization comes up? Is it selling out to someone bigger? Yeah, going for the jugular there. Yeah, you don't have to answer any questions, by the way. I forgot to preface with that. David and I are still enjoying what we're doing and we are in our upper 50s. Oh, you got lots of time. We got lots of time, but that being said, yeah, absolutely. We would absolutely talk to somebody who would have an interest in our firm and what we do and our culture. The thing we have to be careful with that is you insert somebody, we have a really good culture. And so we need to find somebody who's, one, not going to be disruptive to that culture, two, interested in being in El Dorado or a community this size, because we chose El Dorado on purpose. We've had strategic discussions in the past about do we need to be in Wichita? Do we need an office in Wichita? Because we don't do much work in Wichita. This firm has been around since 1952 and I bet we've got less than 50 projects inside of Wichita. Most of them have been around the edges and we just didn't need to go in there and there's lots of architects over there. And so that's where we've lived. But also we recognize that there's a lot of good projects in Wichita that we're not, and our name recognition is not very strong in Wichita. So that's been our focus lately is getting, and we've done a lot, we've got a lot more projects going on over there now. So we're getting some much better name recognition lately. Changing the name made a difference too. Yeah, that was a great rebrand. And so that's, so to your initial point, we chose to be in El Dorado. We like the community size. We like the fact that it was a good place to raise our families. We like the fact that I can be in downtown Wichita in 20 minutes. Yeah. So it's really not an issue, the location. I think El Dorado has a bigger perception problem than a reality problem in terms of proximity to Wichita. So you kind of have somebody who wants that. Yeah. So legacy is pretty important to you. Legacy is important. And we are absolutely entertaining or open to the conversation of somebody. Yeah. Join us for a while and kind of moving on. I don't know how many years we have. John worked till he was nearly 90, and I'm probably not gonna do that. Right, right, yeah. David might. David might, yeah. I'm probably not. No, it's good. One other, I forgot to ask, and then we'll go into a couple of things outside of architecture. Design build is a trend that I see from the architectures and construction company being one unit. Can you speak on pros and cons of that concept? Sure. We like to promote what we call a three-legged stool because it's about accountability. The architect works for the client, the contractor works for the client. That's the traditional method of project delivery. So that, what that does is it's accountability. I don't work for the contractor, so I can be an objective party for any kind of disputes that happen between owner and contractor. And the fine line that we have to walk is everybody knows we work for the owner, but it's important that we are fair in a conversation between that through three parties. We have to remain objective. That's part of the ethics deal, and we need to be able to tell an owner when they're wrong. Yeah. But in a design build world, in kind of the black and white side of a design build world, the contractor hires the architect. Contractor has a contract with the owner, and then the contractor hires an architect, and we work under the contractor. We have not had any trouble with that because we've got good relationships with contractors, but there is a risk that the contractors in control of the design process and material selections, and it's the owner getting the best value. We like to insert that three-legged stool even though it's a design build deal, and the contractors we work with to do that have been great. They respect that. With and respect that. Probably the best advantage of a design build is a project that has to be done on a fast track, or they can be building something while we're finishing designing something else. Fast track would be an example of we've got a building. We know what the shell is. We'll design the foundations and the shell. While we finish the interior and all the rest of the design, you get going on site work. That makes sense. That's a good use of the design build platform. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. Does that affect budget? On time, I guess the price is the price, so that isn't really... A project getting done in four months versus eight months. Oh, yeah. The general contractor has what's called general conditions, which is what it costs them to be on site with the supervision and managing the project. So if it can be done in four instead of six, that's two months worth of savings back to the owner. Gotcha. Yeah. So yeah, there is some price. There is some... And design build does offer at times some budget incentives for the owner to do that too. Sure. Yeah, that makes sense. Well, cool. Yeah, that's a really... You put that well. Okay, let's talk about your side interests. You like cars and you like being mayor. So those are the two things I know about you. You like being mayor. You... I say that in a joking way. I know. Very much appreciate your two terms and what you've done. But yeah, talk about your interest in politics and supporting the community and helping the community. Well, I have the cars. I started with saying that when I was in high school, I thought I'd be a mechanic, right? Which in my mind, I didn't wanna go there yet, but I'm like, oh, that explains the car club and all the cool cars. So I have always had an interest in old cars and that's my hobby. I have a handful of them that I like to drive around and we like to use them. I like watching them in the parade. Yeah, we go to some car shows, but we're really not about car shows as much as just traveling them. I got the little blue Roadster that I have, Ford Roadster, it's got 45,000 miles on it. We've been to the mountains, we've been to the Ozarks, we've been all around the Midwest. That's cool. I knew I married right when Melody came home one day after her day work, and she said, I need a Roadster ride. Perfect. I got it. That's awesome. I love that she loves going with me and we just travel and enjoy the open car and the back roads. We have a, there's a group of us that go, and my two brothers have the same affliction. So we, and their wives, and we will travel together with some other people around the country that we've met, meet him. So the rules of the road when we go is no interstate highways. Oh, wow. No name brand restaurants. That's a good idea. And here's where it got, no name brand hotels. Oh, yeah. That creates a lot of stories, I bet. And they're really guidelines, not rules. Yeah, if we don't feel safe, we can break the rule. Sometimes you gotta get out of the interstate and just go. Sure. But, so when we travel a lot that way. That's awesome. That's cool. What's your favorite car? I don't have one. Yeah. It's like being a favorite project. I don't have, it depends on the day and where we're going. The day and the mood and the destination. The 34 Ford Roadster, the 34 Ford sedan, which is like a Bonnie and Clyde car. That's just fun. And then the Corvette, and the 57 Corvette. And I have a 57 Bel Air, which I had in high school. I still have that car. That's the same car? Same car. I dug it out of a barn when I was a freshman in high school. And fixed it up because it didn't have a motor. It was kind of a car that was a part. And put it together and started driving it when I was a junior in high school. Wow. And then parked it in the garage and went off to college. Didn't sell it. And I still have it. That's awesome. That's cool. Where do you store all your cars? I have around. Around? Different, not just one shop, a couple different? I've got a shop and a garage. Cool. That's awesome. My daily driver sits outside. Yeah. Talk about your, yeah, just passion for Eldorado, Butler County. I, part of this, our firm culture is to get involved. I learned that from my father, my family. Father was retired as a elementary principal here in Eldorado after 40 plus years. My mom worked for the school district and they always got involved with church. I mean, they were, they got involved. So that was part of my, it's just part of life. You got involved. And then when I got to know John and started getting into the practice, the same kind of thing. Get involved with the community. So I have been a longtime member since the nineties of Eldorado Inc. Really enjoy that. I've been a chamber member, Main Street board member, those kinds of things, but I really kind of honed in. I enjoy economic development and the visioning associated with what that can do and the benefits for the community. I kind of see that as a good return on investment. Yeah. So Eldorado Inc. has been my, other than Kiwanis and some other social church, that's been where I plug myself in the most. And then went through Leadership Kansas, which was a great experience, and then kind of got exposed to a bigger picture and kind of got exposed to how Eldorado was perceived around the state. And from there, I got an interest into running for mayor. Wanted to see, wanted to be a part of some of the visioning of the city on that level. I enjoyed being mayor. Yeah. Two terms. I didn't, I chose not to run. I didn't get run out. Right, yeah, no. No, I enjoyed being mayor. There's a lot of things, some things I miss, some things I don't, but it was a good experience. I have done so much, we're working with projects in other communities and trying to get stuff built for clients and all the like. So I have been planning commissions and city commissions on the private side, but sitting behind the bench is a different perspective. And that was, it didn't take long to realize it's different. It's kind of funny. People say, would say, city needs to be run like a business. And I used to agree with that. And I, to some degree, still agree with that. But then after not long being on the city commission, I said, and I think David even mentioned something about city run like a business. Yeah. And I said, but no, you don't want us to run like a business because you don't want us to make a profit. Yeah, right, exactly, yeah, yeah. You want every penny to go back in, but also there needs to be enough pennies to do everything we want. You're pretty upset if we make a profit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's true, oh man. But I did enjoy it. I enjoyed being a part of setting vision and policy was just kind of the daily grind, to be honest. But talking about vision, and David mentioned something about his role with the commission back and forth and the form of government that Eldorado has is pretty efficient. Yeah. And the city manager worked at the pleasure of the commission and everybody else works for the city manager in the city. I mean, he's a CEO and there's a board of directors. He nailed that. I mean, that's the structure. Great way to look at it. And the mayor is the chairman of the board. Right. Black and white. Yeah. Although there's some political. I was going to say, yeah. The public perception of the mayor is much different. They have a kind of funny story. After I was elected mayor, Melody was teaching in Eldorado schools and she had somebody come up to her and want to know, so your husband's mayor now. Is he still going to work? Yeah. What's he going to do? Can he do both jobs? Yeah. They thought it was a city father and I didn't have to work anymore. Right. No, not so much. He made it. At that point it was a hundred bucks a year. Right. Yeah. People don't realize it's a volunteer. But no, I enjoyed being a part of those figures. But luckily we didn't have real controversy. Yeah. I was mayor when we asked David to join and went through the transition from her Blue Island to David. Herb did some great work in Eldorado. Was here for close to 10 years, maybe 10 years. Yeah. And now David's almost here for 10 years, which is crazy. Herb stepped up big and we got the stadium done. That was another one of those momentum things that when it came time, it was a pretty interesting story about that whole thing. Who stepped in when and got things done, kept it going. But Herb did a lot of good things. On his watch, we brought BG to town also. So there's, and then that transition between Herb and David, I was proud of that it was without incident and without, I mean, Herb retired and being able to go through that transition without any turmoil, I was pleased with that. Yeah, that was a- Stressful time. Yeah, for sure. I can't imagine. It's a big hire. Yeah, it's a big hire. Big decision. A big hire. Could change a lot. You guys did good on that. I really appreciated your time as mayor and I feel like we've been pretty spoiled with you and Bill Young. Yeah, Bill's doing a good job. And someone else has turned a step up as he would admit as well, but I appreciate. We tried to do, I tried to do as mayor, one thing that, I mean, David didn't say, I think the mayor's job is to keep the commission, to be a leader for the commission. Yeah. I mean, that's the board chair. So you're the voice. The other thing in the region, like it or not, the mayor becomes the face of the city. I enjoyed getting involved with the region, with a lot of things that were happening in the region, getting to know other mayors around the community, around the Wichita area, Mayor Longwell. We would have coffee once a quarter, just to kind of connect. I enjoyed being able to share what was happening here, what were our challenges here, what was going on and learning some of the things around the region where we're all pretty, we're all unique, but yet same. So that was, I enjoyed that. Yeah, yeah. Well, we appreciate everything you've done for the community and love your passion and your steadiness comes to mind too, of just you've been steady, loyal to seeing our town grow and the greater region beyond that and built a great family and business. Well, thank you. It's been a good run. Enjoy it. And you're in your prime now, so. Am I prime? You're just getting started. Exactly, that's exactly right. You're at your peak. That's right. So enjoy it. Not the peak. Sorry, you can see it. Sorry, but as in at your best potential, I don't know, I'm going to walk that back. Hey, thanks for hanging out. This was a lot of fun. Hey, this has been fun. Thank you for the opportunity. I, this is good. Good. No, I appreciate you being willing and learned a lot. I know a lot of people. So what would you learn? I genuinely get confused about architectures, like the process, but those five things are very informative. I think it's fascinating that you did watercoloring. I never really thought about, how did you present a design build? And yeah, I didn't know your car story to the depth. I've never actually asked you about your passion for cars, but yeah, there you go. There's the top three takeaways. Perfect. So appreciate you. Thanks.