Building a Brewery from Scratch: Community, Craft & Growth with BJ Hunt | Ep 19

Game on. Well, Blizzard's coming. Are we ready? Snowmageddon? Sure. It could be a trace. It could be five feet. We could be in sandals and shorts tomorrow. It's Kansas. Well, the grocery stores, if they empty out and everybody freaks out, usually nothing happens. And then nobody prepares and then something bad happens. I mean, we just need a beer run. I bet you did have one. I'll have to go back and look. Yeah, I heard all the grocery stores are out of beer. And that's too bad. What's up, guys? I'm Samuel McVeigh, the host of the Killer Growth podcast. And today I have BJ Hunt, co-founder of Walnut River Brewery. Yeah. Nailed it. Yep. That's my part. I don't do anything else. The rest of the podcast. Man, monologue. Here we go. Yeah, you're going to do everything else. But thanks for being here. Seriously. For sure. Thanks for giving us an hour. We'll keep it at that. I promise and respect your time. But I start out real easy. Give me your story leading up to Walnut River Brewery, like, you know, around college age. Yeah. So, grew up in Wichita, South Side. South Side. And grew up where, I mean, everybody in South Side, both parents worked, so it left you ample time to get into a little bit of trouble. Not bad, but a little. Did pretty well in school for the most part. That's shocking. I know, isn't it? You would strike me as someone that would have been bad at school. Well, not terrible, but not. I wasn't, like, always 4.0 kid. That's my wife, and her genes from our children are doing great, which is awesome. You were due bare minimum and still get B's and A's. Yeah, for sure. And then I thought, you know, college would be similar. It is not, in fact. So, I went in freshman year at Wichita State, and I thought, you know, there's a sale on beer, and the fish are biting. So, it turns out if you don't go to algebra, you don't really pass it very well. And if you think that when they kind of give you a notice, put you on probation, if you think that's a joke, they will ask you to leave. So, it turns out. What were you going to school for? What was the plan at that point? So, I originally started as business, but the family business was a daycare center with about 250 kids, and that was in Wichita. And so, I did end up switching to elementary and early childhood, which is my undergrad, and then did my MBA later. But, yeah, so in college after that first year, I was pretty ashamed of that. So, I went to go work in Yellowstone National Park, and I just needed to get away and, as I say, remove my head from my southern orifice. And I made it maybe a month. It was terrible. I missed my family. I missed my, not a wife, but girlfriend at the time. I missed my dog. I just missed everything. And I didn't realize how big of a part that was in my life. So, it was the only job I quit with no notice. And I walked in and told them I'm leaving. And they're like, when? I'm like, right now, actually. So, you need to have somebody cover my shift. So, I drove, and the distance from there is basically like driving to Denver and back all in one shot. So, Denver's halfway. And I remember hitting Denver at midnight, and there was a traffic jam. I'm like, geez. And pulled in at like 10 o'clock in the morning. And, yeah, started at the family business two days later. And went to Butler. Took 19 hours and worked 40 hours a week. Made the Dean's List. Then Wichita State's like, I guess you could come back. Well done. So, thank you. Graduated with honors from Wichita State. And said, I'm never going back to college. Which is funny for someone with an education degree. And so, yeah, started working in the family business. And did my MBA about six years later. Because, you know, I'm never going back. Doesn't always work. So, I now say I'm probably not going back. Because I don't need to be Dr. BJ for any reason. I mean, just to be able to say, I'd like to call you Dr. BJ. I could just start again. Dr. Brew BJ. I don't do the brewing. You don't want anything I make. So, yeah, and then one day, after 18 years with my folks, we had about a staff of 35. I learned hospitality, how to take care of people. And I said, Mom, Dad, I love you. I've got to do my own thing. Turns out I'm pretty good at drinking beer. We're going to start a brewery. We all have a superpower. Right? Mine. Some are better than others. So, a buddy of mine, Jeremy Johnson from Johnson's Garden Center, introduced me to Rick. And Jeremy and I met in grad school. And that's when I told him, I was like, you know, I want to start a brewery. I don't know how to brew. I'm like, I feel like that's important. He says, you should talk to my friend Rick in El Dorado. I'm like, I'll talk to him. I bet his beer sucks. You know, everybody's got a friend that makes beer. Okay. And I drive out. And Rick had an apartment in the brewery at the time. And we sit now what's in the canning line back in the back. And I have a beer. I'm like, this doesn't suck. And he's like, thanks. And I'm like, no, no, this is actually really good. And come to find out, you know, Rick had been to brewing school. And he's a BJCP beer judge. He now teaches brewing school occasionally through Butler County College. One of the few in the state, or I think maybe the only one in the state. And, yeah, so that's kind of the bring you up to speed. And we added Travis in. He's always been helping. But he jumped in officially about a year later. So that's awesome. Tell me about that moment when it was a business. So did you happen to have beer with him before you were like, I want to start a brewery? Or did that conversation happen before you actually sat down and had beer? Like you didn't know each other. No. So we started as business partners. He's one of my best friends now. Yeah. You know, which is pretty cool. And one of the top five smartest guys I know. Like he and Travis, super smart dudes. Yeah. But they're like, you can talk to people. We don't want to do that. Yeah. Cool. So give me that. You guys are sitting there drinking. And then like, where do you, okay, we're going to start a brewery. Well, what's next? He wanted to make a restaurant. I'm like, that's a terrible idea. I know the failure rate of restaurants and being on the business side. And I know I'm not a restaurateur. Come to my house. I'll make you some great chicken or steak, but not for 150 people. Right? Sure. So we talked. He wants to do the restaurant. I'm like, no. Can we make a production brewery on a small system, prove the concept, scale it from there? He's like, yeah, I guess. I could just see he was disappointed because he had these facts and figures and everything. And he had a full business plan. Great. So we started with a two barrel brew house, which makes four big kegs at a time. That's it. And how long does it take to make the four kegs? I mean, it takes the same amount of time as it does on the 30 barrel system that we run. And so we just started in the back of, it was a flea market. You'd go in and get a pink flamingo and a growler of beer. It was the craziest thing ever. And I remember going in there. Yeah. I'm sorry. The first time I had your guys' beer. Well, no, it was awesome. It just felt like it was like this backdoor deal. It's like nobody knew, which those are special. Yeah. But yeah, I'd take my growler in. That was the only way I could get your beer. Yeah. Spill it in my growler. We've got 10,000 growlers on the streets. Oh. Literally. We have reordered 19 times and it's 504 to a pallet. Wow. Yeah. We actually don't sell those really anymore. We do the crowlers, the big cans. But yeah. Yeah. I've seen those. That's cool. So yeah. Why El Dorado? Why did you guys, I mean, you're from Wichita. Yeah. Why start? So I told Rick, Delano is where we need to be. I'm a Wichita boy. He says, well, no. He goes, we need to be in El Dorado. He had laid out 35 water quality reports. Rick lived in Wichita. He laid out 35 water quality reports and he looked through everything. He said, El Dorado, Emporia actually has pretty good water too. But he goes, El Dorado is the place to be. And he had already bought the building. I'm like, well, that does help. Right. Right. And it was interesting because he was explaining to me, in his very scientific mind, he goes, Wichita water, you can make good beer. But the big part of Wichita water is Cheney Lake. And Cheney Lake is you get a lot of nitrates that run off from cropland and algae blooms and all that. Interesting. Well, El Dorado, it's pasture. The water is love. Pasture drainage. And then we also have the limestone. It's the right pH. It's the right salinity. It's perfect water for brewing. So that's why we're here. That's why you're here. And that's why we're not moving. Yeah. We always get that question, oh, anything changes. Oh, I heard you guys are moving. You heard wrong. We're not moving. We are here because of the water. What was the first expansion? So you did the small. So what was the bridge? So you're making small batches, low risk. What was the moment you were like, time to expand? Let's get resources. Let's blow this up. Well, it depends on how we're viewing expansion. But more capacity. Six weeks later, we ordered a seven-barrel fermenter, which doubled our capacity. And then six weeks after that, we ordered another one because we were woefully unfair. It was all selling. I'm assuming. Yeah. It was all moving. Yeah. And yeah. And then after that, we're like, we're going to need a bigger boat. So we started talking with the bank. Went pretty well. That's awesome. Yeah. So the model was not a retail location. The model's distribution. But it started as just retail, right? Right. You could only buy it there. That's exactly right. And then at what point did you – explain to me how you go from that to I have a can and it's at a place somewhere else that someone can buy. Well, we knew our focus was on good quality beer. El Dorado's a great town. We love it. It's not huge. It's not – I mean, Wichita's not huge. Kansas City is much bigger. But we can drink with the best of them. You can, and we appreciate that. Just safe right home. So we said I don't know that the brew pub idea would work for us here at the size we need for three guys. Brewing and retail only. Yeah, and none of us ran a restaurant. We're like, no thanks. We are partners in a restaurant, but I never want to run one again in my life. Sure. So – You going into it said I'll never do it. Kind of like you would never go back to school. Right, right. When you did – You've seen the pattern, yeah. Yeah. So now I try to just say probably won't do it. But yeah. So give me that transition though. So you expand production. You get a can line. Yeah. But how do you get the product – like how do you get the product somewhere else for someone else to sell it? So – Because you've never done it before. I mean it's all new. No, and this is why you surround yourself with very smart people. I don't – I got Rick and Travis. They got screwed with me. So it's – no, the connections help. But those guys could scale anything. When I say intelligence, to explain, when you change brew systems, it changes efficiency of the sugars you extract and your grain. And so when you brew your first batch on the big system, which is thousands of dollars, you typically dump it because it's nowhere near where you need it. The very first batch, they realized our new brew system, which is a 30-barrel brew system, which is 186-barrel kegs at a time. They realized a way to take that and it was way higher gravity than a Warbeard should have been. What is gravity? Basically particulates in it, it's going to ferment out at a higher ABV typically. Gotcha. So that would have probably fermented out more like a Morbeard, the 10.1 instead of 5.5. So they made it equally low and they blended those and they actually used the first batch. Nice. It was pretty impressive actually. That's awesome. Those guys are fantastic. So the distribution model then is you go to a liquor store and say, we're Walnut River Brewing, sell our stuff. Yeah. I show them my legs. Yeah, that's what gets them. I believe it. Locally it certainly helps. Can we crop in on his legs real quick? Yeah. Chicken legs. We – it is tougher the farther you get from home, right? We sell 75% of our beer within 75 miles of the brewery. Okay. I was in Enid, Oklahoma yesterday. Great people. They love good beer. They hadn't heard as much – a few people have and I was down doing a tasting and our goal is to get liquid to lips. I know I can get you to try it. I have a reasonable – if you like beer, you have a reasonable success rate there that I think you're going to do okay with it and sometimes not. That's okay. So – but that was the distribution model? Yeah. Like are you knocking on doors? How did you get your first sales? It's both. It's all of it. Yeah. So we started with one distributor, House of Schwan in Wichita. Talking to those guys, they said, hey, we need to get you out in front of a bunch of people. You do ride-alongs with some of their salespeople. You do a lot of events and you're getting people to try your beer for free. Yeah. And we do a – we give out so much beer at events, you know, and we add it up and it's probably $50,000 easy in product and time. And samples and time. Yeah, absolutely. But that's also part of marketing. I was going to say that's probably the best marketing you can do is you like it or you don't. But it's the guy that's coming back for the fifth sample. You're like, oh, okay. I feel like we've already got you here. I'm still not sure yet, BJ. Well, he's like, I'm definitely sure. But that's okay. He's a good customer too. So you go distribution route and then nothing direct. It's all through a distributor? No. We can do direct now. That was just a – Kansas Craft Brewers Guild got that passed here last year, year before. Interesting. But it's 1,000 barrels or less, and we do that in West Wichita. Gotcha. So it wouldn't either. Yeah. Okay. Like a microbrewery. It makes sense for like Red Bud, which we're partners in in Augusta. You know, it's a one-barrel brew house. And for him to take a keg to the bowling alley, no big deal. That's what that's made for. It's not for guys like us. We're shipping out pallets at a time. Because I'm assuming the distributors probably don't want guys that small anyway. No. It just doesn't even fit their business model. They really don't. They don't. Yeah. And we don't. There are no distributors who have one product out there because the distribution model works when you're stacking another case on that pallet going into a store. That's where that profit is, and it's why distribution actually works. You just got to make sure they're paying attention to you. That's the tough thing. You don't want to get lost as a small guy. Yeah. And we are definitely the small guy compared to other bigger brands out there, of course. So my first memory, the first time I met you, you guys had gotten into the... I think it was a few years after you really expanded. I had just bought Charlie's Appliance, or we had just set up Charlie's Appliance. Yeah. And it was the last Oktoberfest they had downtown. Oh, yeah. It was the first time you and I hung out. Yeah. And I had all those triggers. I apologize for everything. No, it was a great time. I had a trigger tent set up, and then you and I just started talking. And this is my... I tell this story all the time. This is my favorite story. You were like, have you ever had a barley wine? And I'm like, nope. I don't know. He's like, you're like, come on. So we walked over because we were only a block from the business. Yeah. And you guys had just come out with it. Right. Like, you had just come out. Uh-huh. And we go into your freezer. It was just such a fun... I mean, you're really good. This is where your partnership probably has worked out. But you make things fun. You can make anybody feel comfortable, right? That's your superpower. You're a good communicator. But we didn't know each other. You take me back there, and we talked about life, religion, politics. Oh, yeah. And we walk into this big walk-in freezer or whatever and grab a barley wine, go into the place of business. And you're like, now, you can't drink this by yourself. It's made to share. That's right. And for conversation. And we just pass that back and forth. Yeah. And we're responsible. And that was a great conversation. We probably talked for an hour. Dude. And it was awesome. I remember getting back to the party, and the party was gone by the time we got there. Yeah. We might have been there longer than an hour. Yeah. I was like, well, okay. But I think my point in that is I know you probably had that encounter and conversation with a lot of people, which helps a lot with your brand and your trust. A couple times. And just getting to know people, shared experiences. And that's what that should be. A brewery is about enjoying the products, having good community, having good conversations. And how else have you guys embedded that into the community? Because that's a big part of your brand start is Eldorado Loves Walnut River Brewery. That's contagious. Why does Eldorado Love Walnut River Brewery? What have you guys done? So it is craft beer is personal, right? It's a story. It's a conversation. And you hit it on the head. There's a reason we don't have lots of TVs in the tap room. I wanted to take down the TV we had. You need it for trivia night, though. Well, we do. But at the time, I was like, just talk to people. And they're like, the Chiefs are playing. I'm like, okay, okay, okay. I get it. I get it. But we're nothing against Buffalo Wild Wings. Great place. They have a bajillion TVs for a reason. But that's not who we are. We want you to talk to people. We want you to play games. I played a lot of card games with my wife there on date nights. Did you play the Giant Uno when we had it? Somebody stole it. Oh, really? Dude, it was super cool. Hey, listen, whoever you are, whoever took that, bring it back. I don't think we ever played that, actually. We played a lot of Exploding Kittens. Yes. We played that a lot. Right? It's a good game. Talk about, I see a pattern in the brewing industry of taking old buildings, dilapidated buildings, right? What a cool use case. That's a trend. Why is that? Is it the upfront investment's cheaper and it can be repurposed easily into that? Is it the, I don't know, the setting? Partly the story. Yeah, there you go. But, yeah, we're bootstrapping the crap out of this. So we're just like, dude, I think we can throw up a couple of timbers there and make it good and, yeah. And that's the nice thing about a brewery is you can have conduit on the wall and it's totally fine. Nobody cares. It can be that industrial look, if you will. Yeah. And we enjoy doing that. I love woodworking. I'm not great at it. I am not any, like, new Yankee workshop guy at all, but it's fun. We made all the tables and bar stuff. And we repurposed it. It's old bowling alley from Wichita that a buddy of mine had put in U.S. logo. And he's like, I don't know what to do with these bowling alley lanes. I'm like, I do. So we took the truck over and loaded it up and, yeah. Repurposed them all. Absolutely. I remember when we could sign the table before you guys put the epoxy on it. Yep. Which was cool. That was a good idea. It was fun. It also makes it, you know, personal. Right. Well, you sit down and you look around. Yeah. Especially locally, you see a name you know. For sure. Or a funny note. I mean, I've got high school friends on there. That's awesome. You know, which is really cool. I'm like, class of 94. Other things you've done to make it a community hub, not just a place to drink beer. You guys do the Trivia Nights, Mug Club. Talk about Mug Club. So Mug Club is just something people get a little discount. It's not a huge thing. It is a nice bump at a time of year that we're going into. It's a dryer spell because we're making beer in January. We're making beer for getting ready for St. Paddy's, which sounds crazy, but we're like Hobby Lobby where they're like six months ahead, Christmas in July. We're not that bad, but we're in there. And so for us, the holidays are actually relatively slow because we have sent our beer out to the distributors who sent it to the retailers. So that's a nice bump. The other part of that is people like to come in and say, hey, let me bring you to my brewery. It's that personal. And we want that. We want people to be proud of because I feel like as a community, we've built something really cool here. I think without the support of El Dorado, we wouldn't be where we are now at all. I've been in the Mug Club. I wasn't in year one. I think I got in year two. Loser. I know, right? So I have all the mugs but one. I need to go find someone and hand them some money. I don't even have the mugs. You don't even have the mugs? I don't. I still got them all in my cupboard. My kids would break them. Yeah, that's true. But, yeah, there's some pride. You walk in and you're like, you grab. I'm like, I'm number 64. I go in and just grab my mug number. And then when I go with people, it's kind of, you know, you just kind of feel elevated. You're a little bit above everyone else in the room when you have your special mug. Yeah. And that's a cool. Nobody is like that, right? No, they aren't. This isn't $500 champagne. It actually kind of just turns into a joke when you go in with other people that don't have it. You actually feel a little bit insecure. You're kind of like, I should drink out of the glass everyone else is drinking. But it's so true. I love taking people there. They had their chance. They're visiting. You stand out there on Black Friday. The other thing I think is cool about the Mug Club, it's finite, right? So there's a limited amount of them you're not going to do anymore. And then if someone doesn't renew their membership, they line up at the door, right, for Black Friday. Yeah, it's like the Thanksgiving table. Yeah, yeah. Aunt Jenny's got to die for you to get up to the grown-up table. That's the same. It's the same thing. That's a great analogy. It's a terrible analogy. You could probably strike that. Yeah, we'll cut that out. We hope your aunt lives. I don't have an Aunt Jenny. It's cool. But no, I agree. And I've heard stories that are hilarious, which tells you the demand signal for it. But I know people that have waited in line because you don't know how many there are, right? It's kind of a secret. You line up at the door until the door opens, and wherever you're at in line, there might not be enough to go, right? So somebody in line for a couple hours might be told they're all filled again. Come earlier next year. And I know that's probably – there's parts that bother you about that, but I think it's awesome. That's good. I just feel bad. I'm like, man, you waited in the cold for nothing. I know. That's like – I think people earning a spot at that table kind of drives up this desire to be there. We tell you in 1964, I waited in the cold. Yeah. I think it's great. I'm sure you have people that get mad. But do you have any crazy stories of someone, like, getting really mad about that? No, not really. I mean our people are pretty cool people. I mean the ones that get really mad, they're generally not our customer, and they don't stay for very long. Sometimes the police remove them. Not generally, but it has happened. Shout out. Thank you, Aldo, PD. Yeah. Oh, they're fast too. Let me tell you. We had one time at a beer prom, and this is years – it was pre-COVID. And I called the police because we had a dude who was just – he had grabbed a bottle of bottle of wine and opened it and started chugging. And then 30 minutes later we had trouble, right? And he was taking swings. I'm like, dude, we're pushing him out the door. And I was like, PD? I kid you not. In 60 seconds we had two from Main Street and two from the other way. One was sheriff's officer, two or three Aldo PD. I was impressed. I'm like, dude, I would not get this service in Wichita, let me tell you. Yeah. Yeah, the guy just walked up. I'm going to get an Uber. I'm like, I don't think we have Uber. I'm like, what the heck? And he just laughed. We do now, by the way. Oh, do we? Okay. And now I think we have Uber Eats or one of the food deliveries. Yeah, I've heard we've got a few drivers in town now, which is great. My kids have Uber Eats. Dad, pick up some chicken. Okay. BJ eats. Yeah. Yeah, so talk about the big winners. I feel like Warbeard, of all your recipes, what were your heroes that really set you guys apart at the beginning? Well, so to be clear, what we think is going to be our flagship is we don't get to choose that. Sure. Of course, we didn't realize that. We thought California Common was going to be the Highway 54. Great beer. Love that beer. What kind of beer was it? I don't remember that. So it's a steam beer, but you couldn't call it that. You had to call it a California Common because Anchor Steam would sue anybody that used that term. I'm like, it's a style of beer. How did you get a whole style of beer? Like, whatever. Anyway, so California Common. And it was different. A lot of people didn't brew that beer. It is truly an American beer. Okay. They developed it with a yeast that operates at a little higher temperature. Cold was at a premium at the time back in the day, and they're like, yeah, we can brew this and ferment a little higher, and it worked out. Great beer. Warbeard, that's its own thing. It's like 60% of our sales. That one. Yeah. We had no idea. And it's an Irish red. It is an Irish red. Five and a half percent. It's what I have everyone try when I take them there first. It's a great beer. I've never had anybody not like it. It's somewhere in between because it's not too dark is probably the word. I don't know what the right word would be. And a lot of people, it's funny because we get like the bitterness from the hops. A lot of people are like, I don't like dark beers. And then we start trying things, and they try and I feel like, oh, no, you don't like hobby beers. Yeah. And so and then coffee porter when we had that, like, do you drink coffee? Oh, yeah. Try this. That was our biggest pullover from no craft beer to, oh, my God, I'm drinking craft beer, was the coffee porter. Interesting. So that was like the gateway drug into the craft. For ladies in particular. Interesting. Yeah. Like three to one ladies. For sure. I would have never guessed that. I know. Because I'm not a big coffee porter fan. No. And I mean, there's a lot going on in those. Oh, for sure. And, you know, we would sell it. It was funny. We would sell it in the summer, too. Like, who buys this in the summer? And I had one guy tell me. He goes, you want to know? I was like, yeah, lay it on me. He goes, we take it camping. He goes, we can start drinking in the morning. Plus, it's our coffee. And I'm like, God, why didn't I think of that? Is there actual caffeine in it? Yeah. Okay, so that's not. But it is for flavoring, so it is allowed. If you're just putting caffeine in it to put caffeine in it, no. No bueno. Because of the label. But if it is for flavoring, caffeine happens. It's ancillary. Yeah. Then, yeah. So a can of it's like a half cup of coffee. Interesting. So you can be wide awake drunk. So be careful, right? Be careful. Right? I think on that, that's an important note to make that I appreciate about breweries in general is that the environment is not like a bar. Like the environment, people aren't there to get wasted or hope to see a fight or, you know what I mean? Like kind of that normal. And I'm not saying that happens at all bars or most bars. But like when you go to a brewery, people are there to enjoy it and they're not. And you do. Like craft beer, you need to drink slow. Like it is not made to drink like Natty Lights. Yeah, it's not the college party. Chug, chug, chug. No, no. It can be for about 20 minutes. Then they're all asleep. Yeah. You're very full. Right? Yeah, for sure. But, yeah, you can have one mug and just a great conversation. A mug can go a while. Oh, yeah. But I enjoy that. I always tell everyone it's pretty family friendly. Absolutely. Like you can see kids in a brewery and feel comfortable. Oh, we have root beer for the kids. Yeah. Yeah, the root beer is great. Oh, yeah. And you guys make your own sodas. We do make a root beer. I jokingly, because it's very, very sweet, I jokingly call it Rick's Diabetic Starter Kit. Oh, yeah. It'll run right through you. Like it is. I can't drink too much of it. My son loves it. And I'm like, you're going to have diabetes. But we do it at the brewery. There's got to be more calories all around in that than a whole beer. We don't want to know. Thickest craft beer. Yeah, we haven't tested that one because it's been in the market in a couple of places. But one of the kickers is once you put that on a tap line somewhere, it's always root beer. Like if you put the Kohl's on after, it's like a root beer Kohl's. Like it permeates the lines. Yeah. And you could be years later. You're like, is this a root beer IPA? I'm like, no, that's just an IPA. It's never leaving. Designated line now. Yeah. So that's why we have a designated back in the back. Yeah, that's right. It's in the back. Yeah. Yep, exactly right. What's the hardest part about a brewery business model? Oh, ramen. Eating a lot of ramen. No, it's – so just one thing. There's so many things. Sure. Name a list. It is tough. Not everybody wants to bootstrap. And I guess this could be said about probably any business. But the items you have to purchase are generally higher cost items. Yeah. And so – Yeah, what's a 30-gallon tank? 30-barrel tank? Yeah, 30-barrel tank. It's about 1,000 – well, it depends. Yeah. It's about 1,000 gallons. It depends if you're buying one from an auction or it depends on if you're buying one brand new. And I will tell you, new sales have slowed to a crawl. But auctions tend to find some good deals right now. The breweries that are still around and doing well, have a little cash, can find good deals out there. Gotcha. And so – But like a worst-case scenario, like if you buy a brand new ballpark price for a single tank like that. Oh, $15,000, $20,000 for just one. But the brewery system itself was more than my house. Right. And I do not have a large house by any means, but it's decent. So it is – yeah, stainless steel is not particularly cheap. And then grain silos, and there's so many ancillary – even hoses are pricey because they're specific to the industry. Right. So things like that. Food grade stuff, like all regulated. Yeah, that's a good point. And the canning line itself is a couple hundred grand. Yeah. Bonus depreciation. There you go. Perfect. Yeah, that's a good point. So it's just high – the infrastructure cost to go to scale is a lot. Yeah. It's not unachievable. Anybody could probably pull that off, but you better know what you're doing. What branding versus – give me a – I love your guys' branding. I love all your artwork on all your cans. And that's a shout-out to Ben. He does an amazing job on that. Yeah, Ben's awesome. Dude, he is the man. And didn't you at the beginning – didn't you have like an artist on some of your labels that drew a lot of things too? Yeah, we did. Back in the day. So yeah, let me tell that story. Okay. We're going to leave the name out of this one. Okay. You don't have to tell the story. No, no. It's humorous. We – there was an artist who was going through a divorce, and he needed cash and snacks. He was hungry. I get it. I was still working my day job. We were getting the brewery going. We had these beers, and we had a few names. We didn't have all the names. And so after work, Monday through Friday, this entire week, I spent every night with him, and we were going over at his house all of these different logos. And he said, yeah, just come. And he's like, bring $100 and like Twinkies. And that was Monday. And then Tuesday, we did another logo. It was $100 and chips and salsa from Carlos Akeli's. The dude was hungry, right? Was he hungry or just a big snacker? Well, if he was hungry, I would have asked for some protein. Right, right. He was going through a big divorce. And I recognize that $100 for a logo is a deal, by the way. Right. Let me clarify. So we get all the way through, and then we have this red, this Irish red. It has no name. And Rick's like, oh, let's go with roughneck red. I'm like, Rick, no, that's terrible. Not everybody thinks just because it's alliteration that it's going to be great. So I'm talking to this guy, and he goes, hey, hey, we got a – he's kind of a music head. He's like, we got a band, and he's like, we got this light and sound company called Warbeard. We could co-brand. I'm like, oh, that sounds cool. And I'm like, Warbeard, Irish red, yeah, I think that would work. And he goes, I won't even charge you for that one. I'm like, okay, cool, thanks. But I still need snacks. I did bring him snacks, yes. And so fast forward a few years, and I get this phone call. He's like, hey, I see Warbeard is doing pretty well. I'm like, where is this going? He goes, I found a new lady, and we want to move to New Zealand. I was like, okay. He goes, I will sell you that for two one-way tickets. I was like, well, I'll tell you what. Let me get back to you. When we did, I said, you're going to sign something from our attorney, and I'm not giving you two-way tickets, but I did see that they're about $1,000 apiece. Here's a check for $2,000. And he signed over everything that he had ever made. I'm like, it was a handshake friend deal, but I was like, whoa, wait a minute. That's tough. But where we rectified that, and $2,000 to us at the time was a lot of money because we didn't take salaries for four years. And even then it was like $1,000 a month. I'm like, oh, rich. Now it's $1,500. Yes. Rich success. Yeah. And so we justified it by saying, hey, would we pay $2,000 for that logo today? Yes, absolutely. Perfect. And then I did run into him at Dylan's not too long ago. I was like, oh, New Zealand doing well for you. I doubt he'll listen to this podcast, but if you're out there. I see you. I see you. That's amazing. That's a really good lesson right there, actually. I've never experienced that. Yeah, you will. Yeah, good to know. Well, I don't even know. At some point it's not even worth going through the, if he would have actually tried to go after you and try and get something. Oh, yeah. The odds of him actually winning versus not. It's not even worth. It's trademark now. We got that. I'm like, nope. Good, good. So that's funny. So my question, and now this provides some great context, how much does branding have to do with them liking a beer versus just the beer is good? Like a pie chart. It's tough, right? Because I think it depends on your market. If you're in a home market, people know a little bit about you. It's different than we're trying to get beer in Stillwater, Oklahoma. And then people are like, who? Kansas what? And so they don't know. I would say the biggest thing is they have to visually like the brand before they even try it. And so if you don't have good graphics on there, a good name, good colors, you know, we rebranded our, our war beard can it's brighter. Because Rick and I actually in Kansas city were in a market visit and we missed our own can or like 30 doors. We missed our own game. We're like, where is it? While you're looking for it. Right. And we're like, okay, we need to do something different. Oh yeah. So yeah. It's their new brandy guy. Good job, Ben. Yeah. Looks great. It's great. So does this like go to your retailers? Yes. That's the team. I take those to the retailers because our distributors have a lot of suppliers. Oh, I bet. And so you need to do something different to stand out. And that, that actually has an active barcode. Like if you walked in right now to a liquor store in town, scan that barcode. It'll pop up. Interesting. Yeah. Right there. Right. Make it easy. So, so who's, who's getting these though? Like these are being passed out to. The owners of liquor stores, bars, restaurants. And then it's on their counter. They have it. Yeah. And then they can tell, you know, the sales guy for, you know, for us, House of Schwan in this area. Hey, this is, we want this, you know. Got it. Because things get lost, you know, and they don't try to, they're, they're generally good people. They just have 75 other suppliers. Right. You know, so we just try to break down the hurdles to sales. I, I. And that's one way to do it. I think personally my favorite design. Oh, I just went by it. I do like the fiesta can is hilarious. I think the high beam is just cool. I love the high beam. I great. I guess it'd be like gradient colors on there. I don't know how you say that designer Tyler. But I've, I've just, I like that. So that changed a lot too. It did. The original logo was, I think Tuesday. I think that was chips and salsa, a hundred dollar night. That was one of the logos. Yeah. And we told him, hey, we really like, you know, the ZZ top eliminator albums. Pretty cool. And he's like, all right. And he's like, yeah, high beam. So yeah, that's a good name. It's a great name for an IPA. Yeah. I don't even know how, usually there's beer and texting involved or like, what do you think of this? That's terrible. And you just back and forth and eventually it just hits. And then sometimes somebody says something that sometimes they're just like, uncle, I, whatever. Yeah. Andy's ale. I'm done. Let's go to that. You know, I want to remove this from my head space. Right. I got other things to do. Yeah. That's good. What's your favorite beer. Ooh, man. That's like asking my favorite kid, but yeah. I think it depends. Give me your top, like by mood, by day of the week. Favorite of our beers or favorite beer. I mean, there's others. No. Of our beers. Because there are some other beers I really enjoy too. People that haven't had your beers are going to listen to this. Right now, I have really been digging our Kolsch. It is. Teterock. Teterock Kolsch. And it has been just a Czech Saaz hop, noble hop, beer, clean. Just, you can mow in a straight line. You know, it's 4.7%. It's my bass fishing beer. So, yeah. Yeah, that's a good beer. Yeah. I was going to say the top. I mean, when you look at that menu, the Warbeard, High Beam, Kolsch, or Teterock. Yep. It's our top three. Rearranged. Gone. Oh, rearranged is gone. That's right. I forgot about that. The can's burned in the fire, and we were trying to get rid of it anyway. At some point, we're like, well, this is as good a time as any to quit. Right. So, we ended up running a few labels to run it out for the year. But, yeah. Got it. Yep. Gotcha. So, what are your top? Warbeards, which is crazy. 60%. Yeah. Then, what's the next? High Beam's number two. Okay. Teterock's three, and then... Everything else. Yeah. Very cool. Yeah, and that would have been my guess. That those three... I didn't know where rearranged fell. I would have been number four. It was number four. Yeah. Yep. Interesting. So, talk about... Actually, it was right in there with Oktoberfest, and Oktoberfest only ran for three months, but it would sell as much... That's a good Oktoberfest. ...as Rio. Hey, answer me this. Yeah. I've had some old Oktoberfests. Yeah. From not you guys, like other people, and you guys. I feel like Oktoberfest flavor changes sooner than... I can have a year-old Warbeard or High Beam, and I'm kind of like... Why is it even an old Samuel Adams Oktoberfest? Is that just in my head? On the recipe, what you're tasting is the hops degrading, or lack of, right, and lack of the hops, because it's going to taste sweeter, typically, because as those hops break down, the balance is different. When you have a hoppy beer, but it's also a malty backbone, it's in balance. High Beam is that way. It's a fairly malty IPA, even though there's a lot of hops in it, but it's also 7.7%. So what happens, like a Session IPA that's a lower, like a 4% beer, you can have a couple, you drop your malt so that you're dropping your ABV, but you try to still bring that hop characteristic up. So your hops wane over time. The beer is still... I mean, we have beers you can drink years later, just know that it has changed. It's not going to taste the same. No. Yeah, so that's it, right? So for whatever reason, I personally taste that hop breakdown on Oktoberfest more than other beers, which is... Yeah. And it's all very subjective, too, by the way. You can taste that beer at seven in the morning, and it will taste different to you at seven at night. And actually, it's... Because of something, like on my palate, or... Absolutely. It is better to try beers in the morning before you have wrecked your palate for the day. True story. So if you need to tell your wife that... Got it. Yeah, that's a justification. Honey, the Gadsbury, 7 a.m., you know. Yeah. But no, that is actually true. I'm calling this R&D for Walnut River Brewery. Honey, this is R&D. Yeah. Yeah, people are always like, oh, you have a dream job. I'm like, I'd love my job, but it's not... We don't drink beer all the time. Right. We do have... Maybe more than we should, but not all the time, so... I've seen you guys do some quality control. For sure. Or not quality control... What would you call that? Oh, we quality control the crap out of that sometimes. Right. No, I was thinking like A-B testing, where you're testing new stuff. Oh, yeah, for sure. Whatever you'd call that. Yeah, testing. I mean, we're... I've been a part of a couple of those. Checking flavor profiles. It's fun. Yeah, it is fun. Yeah, we had a lot of that recently when we were making some brands that have previously been made with different water, and that was a challenge to make sure that those profiles can act okay. Interesting. Yeah, we're trying V6 or Buffalo Sweat or things like that, and making sure that we are sitting out the same beer, because it's not that easy, and that's where Rick and Travis to each other. I'm like, you talk your own scientific gibberish. That's fine. Just make sure it works. That's what I want to know. So talk about expansion on that note. Oh, yeah. You guys are brewmasters. As you said, it's hard to go past 75 miles. So how are you expanding? So yeah, you can either expand geographically or you can sell more in your own home region. Our focus is beer, like I've said. We have some friends that have Wichita Brewing, and they want to focus on their brew pubs. The new-ish ownership came from restaurant backgrounds, and they really want to focus on the restaurants. Kudos. I don't ever want to do that again. So they're like, hey, you guys are efficient with this. You seem to know what you're doing. I'm like, God, we got you fooled. And we started talking, and they said, yeah, it might make sense to move production out there. And along with that was Tallgrass Brands as well. So we're very busy right now. So you're brewing what these people used to brew their own stuff. You're brewing everything for them now as well. In El Dorado? We are. We're just trying to help them out. We are, but four blocks from here. And yeah, they're still going to brew at their brew pubs. Gotcha. For sure. Yep. Okay. But yeah. You'll see a can, it'll say, you know, what's up brewing, or Tallgrass and Brewed in Can by Walnut River Brewing, and we don't need any fanfare. We just want to make good beer and get paid for it. That's all. That seems like a logistical nightmare until you figure it all out. Well, yes. I guess you already run different recipes, different labels on everything, but when you bring in, I mean, your co-packing, is that the right word for the industry? I mean, we're contract brewing, yeah. Contract brewing. But yeah, co-packing would be something, I guess, yeah, that's a good question. Contract brewing and co-packing, maybe the same thing. Maybe not. I don't know. I'll have to talk to my co-packing buddy and ask him. But we use the same distributors for the most part. I think there's only one distributor we use differently in Oklahoma, but everything else lined up. Yeah. We had a lot of similar tastes in beers, but V6 and Hyvium sell side-by-side fine, because they are different. Oh, for sure. And so it just made a lot of sense. So when you're in that model of expansion, which makes a lot of sense, because you don't have to do another location, infrastructure is not- It's closer. Yeah. Infrastructure is not- Absolutely. Yeah. Infrastructure to expand into other locations seems like a nightmare. Well, it's just shipping. I mean, it would work, but- Primarily shipping is the thing. The distribution side of it. Because we'll make it here. Yeah. But then you start adding shipping charges. It's not cheap. No. Unless you're shipping a lot of beer, you're doing LTL shipping and they'll beat your beer up. It just went up again like crazy. Yeah. 10, 15%. Yeah. Across the board on a lot of stuff. So, nope. We are our own shipping company. It's awesome. We bought a $2,500 truck. And you drive to Wichita. Dude, we drive it to Wichita. We drive it to Manhattan. Perfect. So. So, when you're setting up the contract craft brewing, you're not selling it to the distributor then? We are, actually. Oh, you are? Yeah. Okay. So, that's all. Yeah. So, that makes it simpler, too. And we pay a royalty on that. Got it. But yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. Because they have branding. Right. Obviously, it's their brand. And we essentially lease it at that point. But it just made sense. And they continue all the marketing of those products. Yeah. And there's some co-marketing in there. So, we are still kind of feeling through that brand development and how that who tackles that. Right. Yeah. That's interesting. So, there's a lot of stuff. And poor Ben is so busy right now. Poor Ben. He's like, I need help to streamline this. I was like, let me help where I can. Yeah. Because I can't do what you do. So, yeah. The nice thing about the brew pub, they're still posting. They're still putting stuff out there regularly. Oh, for sure. Yeah. As far as their B2B relationships, though, that'd probably be confusing down the road. You're just going to have to have a shirt now, your team, where it's just got all the logos. Well, I wear a Walden River. I've got a Wichita Brick hat I can put on, too. There you go. Yeah. Just like co-branded. And a Tallgrass hoodie or something. I don't know. But they're all good brands. Yeah. And if they were just riddled with a terrible past or something, but good guys, good brands we're like, yeah, we can definitely work with that. What was the hardest thing to learn in the last, gosh, I'm trying to think of the year. It was 2013, 14? 13 when we opened. 13. To learn. Ooh. You only have 13 years to think about it. There's so many. You know, I think the biggest mistake was sitting down with one of our investors. That wasn't a mistake. He's been great. We realized too late that we did not account for all the extra supplies we would need and stock and things on hand. Which turned out to be about 100 grand worth of stuff. Just like inventory on hand in our shop. Yeah. I mean... Because you have inventory on hand that's not productized yet. You have a bunch of raw cans. Yeah. We have a truckload of grain and a grain silo. Yeah. Things like that. So I was talking to one of our investors, a super good dude, and I said, do you have time for a quick conversation? He goes, sure. I go to his office, and his office was being renovated, so we're downstairs in the break room and he's in this big office building in Wichita. And I said, here's the story, what's going on, and we shared a beer out there, we poured in cups, and I said, you know, we're making money, but we don't have any. Sure. And he goes, I thought you might say that. I was like, okay. He's been down this road. And there were seven envelopes on the table. We talked for two hours. We didn't touch them. I'm like, what's going on here? Were there numbers on each envelope? No. There was $5,000 in each envelope. There was $35,000 sitting on the table, and I was like, do you get a bag of Coke for that? Like, what is, you know, I mean, not really, obviously. Police watching, I don't do that. Where's your Coke? Right. More of a Mountain Dew guy. Anyway. I'm a poor Rennergy guy. Oh. Yeah, you're going to need that. Doing more of your, I saw you were doing like a deuce and a quarter on the weights. Not yet. I almost, you know. Okay. I'm trying. I failed. But I'm close. I'm going to get it. Come lift some kegs. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. You're right across the street. Right. So, yeah. So the envelopes are there. He goes, hey, put these in as you need to. I was like, okay. What do I do with them? But, you know, in the meantime. Do you have a safe? I walked around with them in my backpack for like a couple of weeks. It was the craziest thing ever. I don't do that. He had like that number prepared, like in his mind, he thought that was without any communication. That's interesting. Very perceptive guy. Yeah. I said, so do you, how do you, you want to do this debt equity? What do you want to do? He goes, whatever works best for you. I'm like, oh, where did we find you? Anyway, turns out we put that in and he goes, put in one envelope at a time. He goes, $10,000. You know, get questions. That's fine. So, yeah, we did that and give him equity. And I said, how much equity do you want? Whatever the going rate is. The nicest guy ever. That's awesome. And we were fair. Sure. Right? I said, hey, we bumped your percentage up, you know, X amount. That's awesome. Everybody needs one of those guys. Yeah. Even now, but we don't talk to him about that. He's actually signed on just with a lien on his personal house because what we bought the brewing equipment for and what it would sell for the next day was $151,000 gap. Wow. And the bank's like, yeah, you're going to need another. I'm like, dude, we were literally at the bank. I was like, where are we going to get that? And that's when Travis was like, hey, I got a guy we met. I'm like, okay. That's awesome. Yeah. So, yeah, that is such a unicorn to have an investor partner slash mentor. Oh, absolutely. And he had a company. He sold for nine figures. Yeah. And I'll call him and I'll say, hey, what do you do with this? He's like, well, back in 1972, we had that same issue. I was like, wow. Okay. Good call. Good call. So it's like a real life case study. And he just really just wants you to succeed. Like he certainly would like a payday at some point. Right. But I told all three of our investors, I'm like, hey, this is a buy and hold position. So we don't need to be strained by cash out here. Oh, yeah. So, yeah. Well, yeah. Just that infrastructure. That's awesome, man. Well, good for you. A lot of people have a hard time even accepting that kind of help other than money outside of that on the advice side. It's humbling. Yeah, it is. But I also know I am definitely not the smartest guy in the room, and I'm okay with that. I know what God has given me and use what I have. But he's also given me the power to talk to people. And I can talk to so many people about business in the Wichita area. Eldorado, too, has been awesome with like, hey, be glad to help you with that. I just I want to pay that forward when I can. Yeah. And try to a little here and there, but not to the same degree that these guys are. I had another guy that was out of industry, but also a mentor for me. And I'm a firm believer in one industry and one out of industry mentor. Yeah, that's good advice. Just because there's things in both directions, and you need those different perspectives. But, yeah, I remember talking to him. He had run a company that was acquired by Warren Buffett, and he was the CEO at one point. And it was previously a publicly traded company, and then went private. And his Rolodex is way different than mine. My Rolodex. Well, my phone. Yeah. After my dad and my grandpa passed away in 2020, not COVID, just different things. And I realized they were my mentors. And at that time, I was like, I need a mentor. And so I emailed this guy. And I said, you probably don't remember me. You brewed with us five years ago. He's like, of course, I remember you. I'd be glad to talk with you once a quarter. I'm like, holy crap. And, yeah, just an amazing, amazing dude. That's great. What's the best decision you've made in 13 years that you're proud of with your team and Walnut River Brewery? What's the best move you guys made? Man, I would say not to sell out. And what I mean, and I'm not talking financially as a company, but your morals, right? Because I know if we do well, and that is a big if, right? But if we do well, I'm not taking a darn bit of it with me. So it's really the legacy you leave here and to your family, to your community. And that's huge, right? And not to remotely sound morbid, but my dad passed away when he was 69. I turned 50 last month. I'm like, that's 19 years. I hope it's longer, but I, too, like bacon and beer. So I understand, right? I've got to play the numbers. So, yeah, not selling out and generally being, I hope that our staff would say, a great place to work for, with. But I'm sure there's a few that are like, don't work with that guy. But we try to be a good place, right? So I guess that's what I'm proud of. How you take care of people and how you impact people. Because that's all that's left. I don't want to be fake, right? I can't stand that. Now, I will say that. Compliments to you and Rick. I don't know Travis very well, but I've always had great interactions with him. Nobody does. It's okay. It's like a shadow. It's just like, I saw him. He's hilarious. If you get a chance to talk to him. He has some zingers in there that are just real quiet. The quiet ones will get you. Oh, for sure. But no, I really appreciate how authentic you guys are. You never pretend to be something you're not, both of you. It's refreshing and it's easy. I would never think twice about asking you for advice or sharing something that's hard or processing something. You both put that off, that demeanor. You both are very curious individuals and ask questions. Oh, man. I think that's a good answer you just had because I would say that's my favorite thing about the brewery is just the ownership. I think you guys are just awesome. You've got to have fun. It's a great crew. It's a good group. We're not afraid to tell each other no on things. There are times you're like, that's not the answer I was hoping to hear. But all in all, at the end of the day, I think we get along pretty well, the three of us, as a partnership. We joke that Rick and I, we would put in a slide from the upstairs down and then Travis is like, dad. And he's like, I think that's a good idea. I'm like, no, dad. And he's the youngest one. That's the funny thing. He is the voice of reason. Rick and I are the guests and he's the breaks. But you have to have both. Oh, yeah. For sure. Last thing, the partnership. I'm glad you said that. Are you thankful you didn't do this by yourself? Absolutely. I think with three guys, particularly in key positions in the company, because those three positions, it's going to be really hard to leave when that's okay. That's actually what one of our investors wanted to know. Like, hey, can any of you leave easily? And we're like, no. He's like, perfect. I'm in. But I think that was – wait, what was the question again? You could have gone alone or Rick could have gone alone. Are you glad you have business partners, strategic business partners? Absolutely. Could not do that without those guys. And I think each one of them would probably say they couldn't do it without the other two as well because there's just a lot of specialization that we have in what we do. And when you're different enough but humble enough, it's a dangerous combo in a positive way. You're all three very different skill sets and not super proud. So you can compliment each other. It's been a ride. Yeah, it's been a ride for sure. We're having fun. Congrats. Good job. Thank you for hanging out. Yeah, thanks, man. Appreciate you having me. My famous appreciate you. Right on.