From Hand-Drawn Cards to 10,000 Sold: Building Dueling Llamas with Stephanie Boswell | Ep 41

» What's up guys? Sam McVey here with the » What's up guys? Sam McVey here with the Killer Growth podcast and today I have Killer Growth podcast and today I have Killer Growth podcast and today I have Stephanie Boswell. Stephanie Boswell. Stephanie Boswell. » Hi. Welcome, Stephie. » Hi. Welcome, Stephie. » Hi. Welcome, Stephie. » Uh, I asked your husband this. You know, » Uh, I asked your husband this. You know, » Uh, I asked your husband this. You know, is this like your third podcast is this like your third podcast is this like your third podcast appearance? appearance? appearance? » Uhhuh. Totally. Yeah. Making your » Uhhuh. Totally. Yeah. Making your » Uhhuh. Totally. Yeah. Making your » Well, my first. » Well, my first. » Well, my first. » Maybe my only » Maybe my only » Maybe my only » first and only. Hopefully not. Hopefully » first and only. Hopefully not. Hopefully » first and only. Hopefully not. Hopefully this is a big deal. And then you get all this is a big deal. And then you get all this is a big deal. And then you get all these invites. You would hate that. these invites. You would hate that. these invites. You would hate that. » I would. Yeah. Yeah. I was not saying » I would. Yeah. Yeah. I was not saying » I would. Yeah. Yeah. I was not saying like, "Hey, Samuel, can I be on your like, "Hey, Samuel, can I be on your like, "Hey, Samuel, can I be on your podcast?" podcast?" podcast?" » Yeah. No, you wereounding me non-stop. » Yeah. No, you wereounding me non-stop. » Yeah. No, you wereounding me non-stop. You just kept, You just kept, You just kept, » "Hey, Stephanie, you're on the podcast. » "Hey, Stephanie, you're on the podcast. » "Hey, Stephanie, you're on the podcast. Great." I did not ask Stephanie if she Great." I did not ask Stephanie if she Great." I did not ask Stephanie if she wanted to be. I sent her an appointment. wanted to be. I sent her an appointment. wanted to be. I sent her an appointment. » That's the way to get me to things. » That's the way to get me to things. » That's the way to get me to things. » That's the only way I knew I could get » That's the only way I knew I could get » That's the only way I knew I could get you here. No, I'm super excited to talk you here. No, I'm super excited to talk you here. No, I'm super excited to talk to you. Um I I was thinking about I I to you. Um I I was thinking about I I to you. Um I I was thinking about I I think I know pretty much most of your think I know pretty much most of your think I know pretty much most of your story, but I feel like every time I story, but I feel like every time I story, but I feel like every time I learn about your past, I learn something learn about your past, I learn something learn about your past, I learn something new, right? Like with anybody, new, right? Like with anybody, new, right? Like with anybody, » which is surprising. » which is surprising. » which is surprising. » I know, right? Because you have been » I know, right? Because you have been » I know, right? Because you have been Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. » with us through the whole journey. » with us through the whole journey. » with us through the whole journey. » Everything. Yeah. Um, but uh, so you've » Everything. Yeah. Um, but uh, so you've » Everything. Yeah. Um, but uh, so you've listened to some podcasts, obviously. listened to some podcasts, obviously. listened to some podcasts, obviously. Noah Sims, if you want to say hi to him. Noah Sims, if you want to say hi to him. Noah Sims, if you want to say hi to him. He listens to the podcast. He listens to the podcast. He listens to the podcast. » Noah did a shout out. Uh, that was » Noah did a shout out. Uh, that was » Noah did a shout out. Uh, that was cool to have him on and knowing how big cool to have him on and knowing how big cool to have him on and knowing how big of a fan you and Brian were of him on of a fan you and Brian were of him on of a fan you and Brian were of him on season 10, season 10, season 10, » which was how many years ago? » which was how many years ago? » which was how many years ago? » A while. I don't even I'm not sure. » A while. I don't even I'm not sure. » A while. I don't even I'm not sure. » I mean, it's got to be a longgo. 19 or » I mean, it's got to be a longgo. 19 or » I mean, it's got to be a longgo. 19 or 20, wasn't it? 20, wasn't it? 20, wasn't it? » 19 or 20. » 19 or 20. » 19 or 20. » 20. » 20. » 20. » 20. Oh, wow. 19 20 years. Wow. So, I » 20. Oh, wow. 19 20 years. Wow. So, I » 20. Oh, wow. 19 20 years. Wow. So, I would have been 15. would have been 15. would have been 15. » Brian and I have been married a long » Brian and I have been married a long » Brian and I have been married a long time. » But for the those who don't know what » But for the those who don't know what I'm talking about, Noah Sims episode uh I'm talking about, Noah Sims episode uh I'm talking about, Noah Sims episode uh on Master Chef, you can go check that on Master Chef, you can go check that on Master Chef, you can go check that out. It was a wild episode. out. It was a wild episode. out. It was a wild episode. Um, all right. So, we start with an easy Um, all right. So, we start with an easy Um, all right. So, we start with an easy question. I just want to know question. I just want to know question. I just want to know Stephanie's Stephanie's Stephanie's going to school and all of a sudden she going to school and all of a sudden she going to school and all of a sudden she makes a card game. Fill in whatever gaps makes a card game. Fill in whatever gaps makes a card game. Fill in whatever gaps you want. you want. you want. » Going to school and I make a card game. » Going to school and I make a card game. » Going to school and I make a card game. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Yeah. Yeah. I mean, » uh, well, I've always been a really » uh, well, I've always been a really » uh, well, I've always been a really creative person ever since I was a kid creative person ever since I was a kid creative person ever since I was a kid and I've always been like writing and I've always been like writing and I've always been like writing stories and books and I actually that's stories and books and I actually that's stories and books and I actually that's like a lifelong dream of mine to write a like a lifelong dream of mine to write a like a lifelong dream of mine to write a book, which is still possible. Um, but book, which is still possible. Um, but book, which is still possible. Um, but that's what I thought I would be doing that's what I thought I would be doing that's what I thought I would be doing with my life, maybe. And um, are we with my life, maybe. And um, are we with my life, maybe. And um, are we good? good? good? » No, you're good. Okay. Tyler's just » No, you're good. Okay. Tyler's just » No, you're good. Okay. Tyler's just distracting. distracting. distracting. » Okay. » Okay. » Okay. » I didn't forget anything. » I didn't forget anything. » I didn't forget anything. Uh, so anyway, um, and then in high Uh, so anyway, um, and then in high Uh, so anyway, um, and then in high school I fell in love with sewing and I school I fell in love with sewing and I school I fell in love with sewing and I decided I wanted to be a fashion decided I wanted to be a fashion decided I wanted to be a fashion designer and I went to fashion designer and I went to fashion designer and I went to fashion design school for a year. school for a year. school for a year. » Were you like making clothes in high » Were you like making clothes in high » Were you like making clothes in high school? school? school? » Yes. Yeah, making clothes and then when » Yes. Yeah, making clothes and then when » Yes. Yeah, making clothes and then when I was in college, I made like a whole I was in college, I made like a whole I was in college, I made like a whole line of clothes for a fashion show at line of clothes for a fashion show at line of clothes for a fashion show at the college and that was really the college and that was really the college and that was really cool. Um, cool. Um, cool. Um, » did the clothes get made? » did the clothes get made? » did the clothes get made? » I did all the stuff. » I did all the stuff. » I did all the stuff. » You made all the And then did people put » You made all the And then did people put » You made all the And then did people put them on? them on? them on? » Yeah. Models wore then and walked out to » Yeah. Models wore then and walked out to » Yeah. Models wore then and walked out to music and there were people watching. It music and there were people watching. It music and there were people watching. It was a really neat experience. So, was a really neat experience. So, was a really neat experience. So, » um, I » um, I » um, I » see I just learned something cuz I knew » see I just learned something cuz I knew » see I just learned something cuz I knew you were going for fashion design, but I you were going for fashion design, but I you were going for fashion design, but I didn't know you like basically designed didn't know you like basically designed didn't know you like basically designed a show. a show. a show. » Yeah. Well, it was just one part of it » Yeah. Well, it was just one part of it » Yeah. Well, it was just one part of it out of college. I mean, no high level out of college. I mean, no high level out of college. I mean, no high level anything, but it was a really neat anything, but it was a really neat anything, but it was a really neat experience. I imagined that's what I was experience. I imagined that's what I was experience. I imagined that's what I was going to end up doing, but then I met going to end up doing, but then I met going to end up doing, but then I met Brian » and well then I left college. » and well then I left college. » and well then I left college. » Yeah. Yeah. » Yeah. Yeah. » Yeah. Yeah. » So anyway, um fast forward became a mom » So anyway, um fast forward became a mom » So anyway, um fast forward became a mom and have been raising kids and then I and have been raising kids and then I and have been raising kids and then I you had actually mentioned something in you had actually mentioned something in you had actually mentioned something in 2020 when everybody was stuck in our 2020 when everybody was stuck in our 2020 when everybody was stuck in our homes. You're like, "Oh yeah, homes. You're like, "Oh yeah, homes. You're like, "Oh yeah, » now's the time » now's the time » now's the time card game." card game." card game." » Yeah. And I didn't immediately start » Yeah. And I didn't immediately start » Yeah. And I didn't immediately start thinking like, oh, I'm gonna try to come thinking like, oh, I'm gonna try to come thinking like, oh, I'm gonna try to come up with a game. It just kind of started up with a game. It just kind of started up with a game. It just kind of started the wheels started kind of turning like the wheels started kind of turning like the wheels started kind of turning like I wonder what that'd be like. I wonder what that'd be like. I wonder what that'd be like. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » And then one day I just had this idea » And then one day I just had this idea » And then one day I just had this idea and it all just like hit me and came to and it all just like hit me and came to and it all just like hit me and came to me and I just typed down everything I me and I just typed down everything I me and I just typed down everything I was thinking as fast as I could. was thinking as fast as I could. was thinking as fast as I could. » Did you write down everything you were » Did you write down everything you were » Did you write down everything you were thinking or type everything? thinking or type everything? thinking or type everything? » Okay. » Okay. » Okay. » Typed out everything I was thinking. all » Typed out everything I was thinking. all » Typed out everything I was thinking. all I had all these like llama characters I had all these like llama characters I had all these like llama characters suddenly in my head and how the game suddenly in my head and how the game suddenly in my head and how the game would go and so I wrote it all out and would go and so I wrote it all out and would go and so I wrote it all out and then took some card stock hand drew some then took some card stock hand drew some then took some card stock hand drew some cards very rough drawings cards very rough drawings cards very rough drawings » of llamas and » of llamas and » of llamas and » you need to grab those when you're here » you need to grab those when you're here » you need to grab those when you're here today by the way my office today by the way my office today by the way my office » I do um and we started playing as a » I do um and we started playing as a » I do um and we started playing as a family and then you and Haley were the family and then you and Haley were the family and then you and Haley were the guinea pigs guinea pigs guinea pigs » yeah I remember » yeah I remember » yeah I remember » I was like I have a game » I was like I have a game » I was like I have a game Please don't look too closely at the Please don't look too closely at the Please don't look too closely at the cards. cards. cards. » You took uh it was what card stock? » You took uh it was what card stock? » You took uh it was what card stock? » Yeah, just like you cut them » Yeah, just like you cut them » Yeah, just like you cut them » and I cut them. Yeah, I measured them » and I cut them. Yeah, I measured them » and I cut them. Yeah, I measured them all out, cut them all myself, hand drew. all out, cut them all myself, hand drew. all out, cut them all myself, hand drew. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Um a whole bunch of cards and then we » Um a whole bunch of cards and then we » Um a whole bunch of cards and then we played it. played it. played it. » And then the rules I was trying to » And then the rules I was trying to » And then the rules I was trying to remember, were the rules typed out or remember, were the rules typed out or remember, were the rules typed out or were they written out on were they written out on were they written out on » I typed those out too. Yep. typed out » I typed those out too. Yep. typed out » I typed those out too. Yep. typed out the rules and then you guys enjoyed it. the rules and then you guys enjoyed it. the rules and then you guys enjoyed it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. » And we kept playing it until we felt » And we kept playing it until we felt » And we kept playing it until we felt like we worked out all the issues. I like we worked out all the issues. I like we worked out all the issues. I remember that and remember that and remember that and » then you're like you should do something » then you're like you should do something » then you're like you should do something with this. with this. with this. » Yeah. Make a game. » Yeah. Make a game. » Yeah. Make a game. » So here we are. » So here we are. » So here we are. » Here we are. One. » Here we are. One. » Here we are. One. » Now it's a real life game. » Now it's a real life game. » Now it's a real life game. » There it is. There it is. Everybody » There it is. There it is. Everybody » There it is. There it is. Everybody dealing llamas. dealing llamas. dealing llamas. » Cool. I mean I got to say, you know, » Cool. I mean I got to say, you know, » Cool. I mean I got to say, you know, kudos to Tyler over here, but it's I kudos to Tyler over here, but it's I kudos to Tyler over here, but it's I mean it's got to be one of the coolest mean it's got to be one of the coolest mean it's got to be one of the coolest boxes. Yes. boxes. Yes. boxes. Yes. » Game boxes I've ever seen. » Game boxes I've ever seen. » Game boxes I've ever seen. » Yeah. And this is like this is a group » Yeah. And this is like this is a group » Yeah. And this is like this is a group project. Like sure I came up with the project. Like sure I came up with the project. Like sure I came up with the idea. idea. idea. » Well, I have a lot of people helping me, » Well, I have a lot of people helping me, » Well, I have a lot of people helping me, » which is the right way to do it. Yeah. » which is the right way to do it. Yeah. » which is the right way to do it. Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Um, so when you were cuz like game play, » Um, so when you were cuz like game play, » Um, so when you were cuz like game play, you guys are like obsessed with games. you guys are like obsessed with games. you guys are like obsessed with games. » We love games. I've always played lots » We love games. I've always played lots » We love games. I've always played lots of games growing up and we've played of games growing up and we've played of games growing up and we've played lots of games with our kids. lots of games with our kids. lots of games with our kids. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. Brian will just play a couple hours a Brian will just play a couple hours a Brian will just play a couple hours a night in certain seasons, you know. I night in certain seasons, you know. I night in certain seasons, you know. I remember that. Just like, oh, we just remember that. Just like, oh, we just remember that. Just like, oh, we just played this game. Like, I think we played this game. Like, I think we played this game. Like, I think we played it from 8 to 10 p.m. Like, how played it from 8 to 10 p.m. Like, how played it from 8 to 10 p.m. Like, how many times did you play that card game? many times did you play that card game? many times did you play that card game? Probably like 20 times. Probably like 20 times. Probably like 20 times. » Yeah. Yeah. So, we love games. Um, so » Yeah. Yeah. So, we love games. Um, so » Yeah. Yeah. So, we love games. Um, so I'm very familiar with like I'm very familiar with like I'm very familiar with like » gameplay » gameplay » gameplay » game play and what makes a good game and » game play and what makes a good game and » game play and what makes a good game and what we enjoy. And so just kind of what we enjoy. And so just kind of what we enjoy. And so just kind of taking those elements and then putting taking those elements and then putting taking those elements and then putting them into a game that I think a lot of them into a game that I think a lot of them into a game that I think a lot of people could enjoy. And and the big people could enjoy. And and the big people could enjoy. And and the big thing for me is I wanted it to be fun, thing for me is I wanted it to be fun, thing for me is I wanted it to be fun, not just for like young kids, but a game not just for like young kids, but a game not just for like young kids, but a game that you could play with your kids, but that you could play with your kids, but that you could play with your kids, but you're enjoying yourself cuz there's a you're enjoying yourself cuz there's a you're enjoying yourself cuz there's a lot of games out there that your kids lot of games out there that your kids lot of games out there that your kids are like, "Let's play. Yeah, let's play are like, "Let's play. Yeah, let's play are like, "Let's play. Yeah, let's play this." And you're like, this." And you're like, this." And you're like, » I don't want to play to play that one » I don't want to play to play that one » I don't want to play to play that one more time. But this is one that it's more time. But this is one that it's more time. But this is one that it's like, okay, sure. So, was that the root like, okay, sure. So, was that the root like, okay, sure. So, was that the root like at at your core like the main there like at at your core like the main there like at at your core like the main there's a lot that goes into the game, there's a lot that goes into the game, there's a lot that goes into the game, but at the core of the game like the but at the core of the game like the but at the core of the game like the problem or feeling you were trying to problem or feeling you were trying to problem or feeling you were trying to accomplish was fun for adults and kids. accomplish was fun for adults and kids. accomplish was fun for adults and kids. » That's one Yeah, that's one of the » That's one Yeah, that's one of the » That's one Yeah, that's one of the things I really wanted to do. things I really wanted to do. things I really wanted to do. » What other things were you thinking » What other things were you thinking » What other things were you thinking about that you really wanted in a game? about that you really wanted in a game? about that you really wanted in a game? » Um, I think I just wanted people to have » Um, I think I just wanted people to have » Um, I think I just wanted people to have a good time and uh I feel like playing a good time and uh I feel like playing a good time and uh I feel like playing games is such a great way to connect games is such a great way to connect games is such a great way to connect with others, whether it's with your kids with others, whether it's with your kids with others, whether it's with your kids or friends. And I really like I feel or friends. And I really like I feel or friends. And I really like I feel like we've made so many good connections like we've made so many good connections like we've made so many good connections over games that we've played with over games that we've played with over games that we've played with people. And that's really what I want people. And that's really what I want people. And that's really what I want people to experience when they're people to experience when they're people to experience when they're playing my game is just a game that they playing my game is just a game that they playing my game is just a game that they can really connect with others and have can really connect with others and have can really connect with others and have a lot of fun and have these memories of a lot of fun and have these memories of a lot of fun and have these memories of like, oh, remember when we played like, oh, remember when we played like, oh, remember when we played dueling llamas and dueling llamas and dueling llamas and » I stole your llama with all those » I stole your llama with all those » I stole your llama with all those ninjas? ninjas? ninjas? » Mo. Yeah. And most of the time it's » Mo. Yeah. And most of the time it's » Mo. Yeah. And most of the time it's I stole the llama corn because the I stole the llama corn because the I stole the llama corn because the coveted prize. coveted prize. coveted prize. » My girls, they hate it when someone » My girls, they hate it when someone » My girls, they hate it when someone takes their llama corn. I do too. That's takes their llama corn. I do too. That's takes their llama corn. I do too. That's That's good. That's good. That's good. » I just hate when my kids are stealing » I just hate when my kids are stealing » I just hate when my kids are stealing from me. I'm just like handing it over from me. I'm just like handing it over from me. I'm just like handing it over because I just know that's the one they because I just know that's the one they because I just know that's the one they want. want. want. » Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's smart. Yeah. » Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's smart. Yeah. » Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's smart. Yeah. Just spit or uh what card do you Just spit or uh what card do you Just spit or uh what card do you play? I can't I won't get into that. I play? I can't I won't get into that. I play? I can't I won't get into that. I was going to get into like which one you was going to get into like which one you was going to get into like which one you play where you can't pick the one you play where you can't pick the one you play where you can't pick the one you want and they get to pick. It's always a want and they get to pick. It's always a want and they get to pick. It's always a debate in my house. debate in my house. debate in my house. » Oh, yeah. Like it's the » Oh, yeah. Like it's the » Oh, yeah. Like it's the » that they don't get to pick when you're » that they don't get to pick when you're » that they don't get to pick when you're paying llamas. Yeah. Then you get to paying llamas. Yeah. Then you get to paying llamas. Yeah. Then you get to choose. Yeah, choose. Yeah, choose. Yeah, » but if they're stealing, » but if they're stealing, » but if they're stealing, » yes, they get to choose which herd » yes, they get to choose which herd » yes, they get to choose which herd llama, which this will all make sense in llama, which this will all make sense in llama, which this will all make sense in a second. We'll explain the game. a second. We'll explain the game. a second. We'll explain the game. » Um, so when it was like when did it go » Um, so when it was like when did it go » Um, so when it was like when did it go from this is a fun idea to like, oh, I from this is a fun idea to like, oh, I from this is a fun idea to like, oh, I this is going to be a game in your mind this is going to be a game in your mind this is going to be a game in your mind like what was that epiphany? Was it when like what was that epiphany? Was it when like what was that epiphany? Was it when we were playing with your demo cards or we were playing with your demo cards or we were playing with your demo cards or was it maybe when you started making was it maybe when you started making was it maybe when you started making those first handdrawn cards? those first handdrawn cards? those first handdrawn cards? » I think I did when I was first making » I think I did when I was first making » I think I did when I was first making the handdrawn cards. I don't really know the handdrawn cards. I don't really know the handdrawn cards. I don't really know if I knew what would come with come know if I knew what would come with come know if I knew what would come with come of it, but I just thought, well, this is of it, but I just thought, well, this is of it, but I just thought, well, this is fun. We'll just see what where it goes. fun. We'll just see what where it goes. fun. We'll just see what where it goes. » And if it weren't for Brian, my husband, » And if it weren't for Brian, my husband, » And if it weren't for Brian, my husband, encouraging me, it probably wouldn't be encouraging me, it probably wouldn't be encouraging me, it probably wouldn't be sitting on this table because I'm sitting on this table because I'm sitting on this table because I'm » That's just not my personality. Yeah. » That's just not my personality. Yeah. » That's just not my personality. Yeah. I'm not like, "Oh, yeah. Let's make a I'm not like, "Oh, yeah. Let's make a I'm not like, "Oh, yeah. Let's make a card game." It' probably still be these card game." It' probably still be these card game." It' probably still be these little white cards with silly llamas little white cards with silly llamas little white cards with silly llamas drawn on them that we be drawn on them that we be drawn on them that we be » Yeah. Yeah. Those llamas were pretty » Yeah. Yeah. Those llamas were pretty » Yeah. Yeah. Those llamas were pretty good. I mean, you're you're not bad at good. I mean, you're you're not bad at good. I mean, you're you're not bad at drawing. drawing. drawing. » I'm not great at drawing. You compare » I'm not great at drawing. You compare » I'm not great at drawing. You compare yourself to your brother, which we'll yourself to your brother, which we'll yourself to your brother, which we'll get into. Um, so you have these llama get into. Um, so you have these llama get into. Um, so you have these llama character ideas. You have gameplay kind character ideas. You have gameplay kind character ideas. You have gameplay kind of ironed out. Um, then the next step is of ironed out. Um, then the next step is of ironed out. Um, then the next step is obviously designing and making the obviously designing and making the obviously designing and making the llamas, which I'll show them. They're llamas, which I'll show them. They're llamas, which I'll show them. They're great. So, your brother's an artist. great. So, your brother's an artist. great. So, your brother's an artist. Yes. Yes. Yes. » And he drew all of these. Oops. Sorry. » And he drew all of these. Oops. Sorry. » And he drew all of these. Oops. Sorry. » Yeah. And he's actually right away I » Yeah. And he's actually right away I » Yeah. And he's actually right away I pretty much contacted him and said, pretty much contacted him and said, pretty much contacted him and said, "Hey, I have this idea. how do you feel "Hey, I have this idea. how do you feel "Hey, I have this idea. how do you feel about drawing a bunch of llamas for me? about drawing a bunch of llamas for me? about drawing a bunch of llamas for me? And he's a huge supporter of all of my And he's a huge supporter of all of my And he's a huge supporter of all of my ideas and of course was like, "Sure, ideas and of course was like, "Sure, ideas and of course was like, "Sure, I'll draw llamas." And so he drew a I'll draw llamas." And so he drew a I'll draw llamas." And so he drew a whole bunch of them. whole bunch of them. whole bunch of them. » And we actually have like the original » And we actually have like the original » And we actually have like the original files and they look much different than files and they look much different than files and they look much different than how they ended up how they ended up how they ended up » looking before we wanted them. They're » looking before we wanted them. They're » looking before we wanted them. They're very, very artsy. very, very artsy. very, very artsy. » Um, and I don't know, some maybe it'll » Um, and I don't know, some maybe it'll » Um, and I don't know, some maybe it'll be a special collection someday, but uh, be a special collection someday, but uh, be a special collection someday, but uh, » that's a good idea. Yeah. But yeah, so I » that's a good idea. Yeah. But yeah, so I » that's a good idea. Yeah. But yeah, so I have those original files of what he have those original files of what he have those original files of what he drew and then just as we kept working drew and then just as we kept working drew and then just as we kept working through it, we figured out what we through it, we figured out what we through it, we figured out what we wanted them to really look like. And wanted them to really look like. And wanted them to really look like. And » yeah. » yeah. » yeah. » Um, » Um, » Um, » so did he how did he draw these? » so did he how did he draw these? » so did he how did he draw these? » That's a great question. He should be » That's a great question. He should be » That's a great question. He should be here for that. here for that. here for that. » That's a good uh Yeah, good example of » That's a good uh Yeah, good example of » That's a good uh Yeah, good example of uh the types of drawings he did. uh the types of drawings he did. uh the types of drawings he did. » I guess I got » I guess I got » I guess I got » Did he sketch? I know he sketched them » Did he sketch? I know he sketched them » Did he sketch? I know he sketched them all. all. all. » We got llama corn, dragon llama, beach » We got llama corn, dragon llama, beach » We got llama corn, dragon llama, beach llama, llama, llama, » Bahama llama. Yeah. Bahama llama, » Bahama llama. Yeah. Bahama llama, » Bahama llama. Yeah. Bahama llama, adventure llama, Indiana Jones llama. adventure llama, Indiana Jones llama. adventure llama, Indiana Jones llama. » Um, so, so did he draw them on like an » Um, so, so did he draw them on like an » Um, so, so did he draw them on like an iPad? Did he hand them? iPad? Did he hand them? iPad? Did he hand them? » Um, you're asking the wrong person. » Um, you're asking the wrong person. » Um, you're asking the wrong person. » I know. I none of us know. It's like a » I know. I none of us know. It's like a » I know. I none of us know. It's like a » I don't really know what he did. » I don't really know what he did. » I don't really know what he did. » What do you think he did, Tyler? » What do you think he did, Tyler? » What do you think he did, Tyler? » I should remember. » I should remember. » I should remember. » You should know. Come on. » You should know. Come on. » You should know. Come on. » I think he hand sketched them first. » I think he hand sketched them first. » I think he hand sketched them first. » I think so. Hand sketched them first, » I think so. Hand sketched them first, » I think so. Hand sketched them first, then he digitized them in illustrator. then he digitized them in illustrator. then he digitized them in illustrator. » Yeah. And he really likes hand sketching » Yeah. And he really likes hand sketching » Yeah. And he really likes hand sketching things. things. things. » I'm sure. kind of like a brainstorming » I'm sure. kind of like a brainstorming » I'm sure. kind of like a brainstorming session. session. session. » He's very creative and a lot of » He's very creative and a lot of » He's very creative and a lot of like how the llamas look a lot of them, like how the llamas look a lot of them, like how the llamas look a lot of them, you know, I just said this is the type you know, I just said this is the type you know, I just said this is the type of llama I need of llama I need of llama I need » draw something. So he's » draw something. So he's » draw something. So he's » it wasn't like a ton of guidance. » it wasn't like a ton of guidance. » it wasn't like a ton of guidance. » Yeah, there was some. And so I'm like, » Yeah, there was some. And so I'm like, » Yeah, there was some. And so I'm like, hey, could you change this on a llama or hey, could you change this on a llama or hey, could you change this on a llama or whatever? But he did, you know, used a whatever? But he did, you know, used a whatever? But he did, you know, used a lot of his own creativity just to come lot of his own creativity just to come lot of his own creativity just to come up with what the llamas looked like. And up with what the llamas looked like. And up with what the llamas looked like. And so yeah, that was super cool. One of my so yeah, that was super cool. One of my so yeah, that was super cool. One of my favorite things about the game is favorite things about the game is favorite things about the game is getting to work on it with him. getting to work on it with him. getting to work on it with him. » So, why llamas? » So, why llamas? » So, why llamas? » There's Stephanie with the llama. » There's Stephanie with the llama. » There's Stephanie with the llama. » We had a llama named Mike. » We had a llama named Mike. » We had a llama named Mike. » There's Mike. » There's Mike. » There's Mike. » And so, we didn't choose llamas just » And so, we didn't choose llamas just » And so, we didn't choose llamas just because they're a popular animal. because they're a popular animal. because they're a popular animal. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Um, they're actually really a special » Um, they're actually really a special » Um, they're actually really a special part of our life. Um, part of our life. Um, part of our life. Um, » tell us about Mike. » tell us about Mike. » tell us about Mike. » Tell Okay. Mike was our llama, our pet » Tell Okay. Mike was our llama, our pet » Tell Okay. Mike was our llama, our pet llama. And um we had him for a long llama. And um we had him for a long llama. And um we had him for a long time. And we had all sorts of actually time. And we had all sorts of actually time. And we had all sorts of actually other animals too. Lots of miniature other animals too. Lots of miniature other animals too. Lots of miniature goats and miniature pigs and chickens goats and miniature pigs and chickens goats and miniature pigs and chickens and all the things. And he was like the and all the things. And he was like the and all the things. And he was like the protector of our herd. And so the crazy protector of our herd. And so the crazy protector of our herd. And so the crazy thing it it would be so interesting to thing it it would be so interesting to thing it it would be so interesting to see like if he sensed danger, he would see like if he sensed danger, he would see like if he sensed danger, he would round up all the animals and get them to round up all the animals and get them to round up all the animals and get them to go into the shelter like stand guard at go into the shelter like stand guard at go into the shelter like stand guard at the door until he felt like it was safe the door until he felt like it was safe the door until he felt like it was safe » for them to come back out. And so » for them to come back out. And so » for them to come back out. And so » superl. So yeah, um we've just he was just a So yeah, um we've just he was just a really fun animal to have and um a really fun animal to have and um a really fun animal to have and um a special part of our lives. And so it was special part of our lives. And so it was special part of our lives. And so it was really cool to like have him as really cool to like have him as really cool to like have him as inspiration for llamas. And if you come inspiration for llamas. And if you come inspiration for llamas. And if you come to our house, you can tell we like to our house, you can tell we like to our house, you can tell we like llamas because there are llamas because there are llamas because there are llamas everywhere. Like I have a a llama in a everywhere. Like I have a a llama in a everywhere. Like I have a a llama in a bathtub in my bathroom. bathtub in my bathroom. bathtub in my bathroom. » In the bathtub. » In the bathtub. » In the bathtub. » Well, a picture of a llama in a bathtub. » So water. It's a Does that have fins? » So water. It's a Does that have fins? It's in the bathtub. You play with it. It's in the bathtub. You play with it. It's in the bathtub. You play with it. » Yeah. No, » Yeah. No, » Yeah. No, » that's awesome. But yeah, I didn't know » that's awesome. But yeah, I didn't know » that's awesome. But yeah, I didn't know they did that. Um I've always wondered they did that. Um I've always wondered they did that. Um I've always wondered what the use of llamas were besides just what the use of llamas were besides just what the use of llamas were besides just look cutting them and looking at them. look cutting them and looking at them. look cutting them and looking at them. » Protectors and natural deterrence of » Protectors and natural deterrence of » Protectors and natural deterrence of coyotes. And coyotes. And coyotes. And » what sound does a llama make? » what sound does a llama make? » what sound does a llama make? » Oh man, I really don't want to do it. » Oh man, I really don't want to do it. » Oh man, I really don't want to do it. » I know. » I know. » I know. It's a really kind of weird. It's a really kind of weird. It's a really kind of weird. » It's kind of like » It's kind of like » It's kind of like » Yes. » Yes. » Yes. » But I don't know if I even did that very » But I don't know if I even did that very » But I don't know if I even did that very well. Every time I listen to a video, well. Every time I listen to a video, well. Every time I listen to a video, I'm like, I don't even really know how I'm like, I don't even really know how I'm like, I don't even really know how to recreate that sound. to recreate that sound. to recreate that sound. » It's like, what does a fox say? Yeah, » It's like, what does a fox say? Yeah, » It's like, what does a fox say? Yeah, it's tough. Um, do llamas really spit? it's tough. Um, do llamas really spit? it's tough. Um, do llamas really spit? » Yes. Mike never spit. » Yes. Mike never spit. » Yes. Mike never spit. » Mike never spit on us. » Mike never spit on us. » Mike never spit on us. » Now, if he felt threatened, he might » Now, if he felt threatened, he might » Now, if he felt threatened, he might have spit on someone, have spit on someone, have spit on someone, » but on he loved us. Yeah. » but on he loved us. Yeah. » but on he loved us. Yeah. » So that's the other thing like » So that's the other thing like » So that's the other thing like » he knew us and knew our kids and we felt » he knew us and knew our kids and we felt » he knew us and knew our kids and we felt really safe around him. He was wild really safe around him. He was wild really safe around him. He was wild though. He was a wild llama. though. He was a wild llama. though. He was a wild llama. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » And » And » And » like as in you found him in the wild or » like as in you found him in the wild or » like as in you found him in the wild or he was just wild. he was just wild. he was just wild. » But he just we didn't we didn't like » But he just we didn't we didn't like » But he just we didn't we didn't like domesticate him and make him like you domesticate him and make him like you domesticate him and make him like you couldn't just go up and pet him. Got it. couldn't just go up and pet him. Got it. couldn't just go up and pet him. Got it. » He did not he was not cool with that. » He did not he was not cool with that. » He did not he was not cool with that. Like leave me alone. Let me do my job. Like leave me alone. Let me do my job. Like leave me alone. Let me do my job. Don't. Don't. Don't. » But could you me » But could you me » But could you me » Oh, the only time is in that picture. We » Oh, the only time is in that picture. We » Oh, the only time is in that picture. We put a halter on him, put a halter on him, put a halter on him, » which was a very interesting experience. » which was a very interesting experience. » which was a very interesting experience. » Yeah. Um » Yeah. Um » Yeah. Um » Oh, yeah. He does. Oh, » Oh, yeah. He does. Oh, » Oh, yeah. He does. Oh, » Brian and I were hurting him » Brian and I were hurting him » Brian and I were hurting him » or we caught him in a corner. We got him » or we caught him in a corner. We got him » or we caught him in a corner. We got him in a corner in a corner in a corner » and he did not like to be touched, but » and he did not like to be touched, but » and he did not like to be touched, but we needed to shear him. So we we're we needed to shear him. So we we're we needed to shear him. So we we're putting we're putting this halter on him putting we're putting this halter on him putting we're putting this halter on him and I remember looking down and llamas and I remember looking down and llamas and I remember looking down and llamas have like these big like claw hoof have like these big like claw hoof have like these big like claw hoof things and thinking if he decides he things and thinking if he decides he things and thinking if he decides he doesn't like what we're doing he could doesn't like what we're doing he could doesn't like what we're doing he could just take both of us out like in a just take both of us out like in a just take both of us out like in a second and I remember thinking please second and I remember thinking please second and I remember thinking please Mike » ninja lama » ninja lama » ninja lama » don't don't take us out but once we got » don't don't take us out but once we got » don't don't take us out but once we got the halter on he became really docile the halter on he became really docile the halter on he became really docile and we let him all around the yard and we let him all around the yard and we let him all around the yard and that's how we got picture with him and that's how we got picture with him and that's how we got picture with him and he let us pet him with that on but he let us pet him with that on but he let us pet him with that on but normally just walking up to him he was normally just walking up to him he was normally just walking up to him he was not like, you know, don't touch me. not like, you know, don't touch me. not like, you know, don't touch me. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » So, um anyway, if I had known that » So, um anyway, if I had known that » So, um anyway, if I had known that picture was going to end up in the box, picture was going to end up in the box, picture was going to end up in the box, » right, » right, » right, » I would have like worn something » I would have like worn something » I would have like worn something » something different » something different » something different » and fix my hair or something. » and fix my hair or something. » and fix my hair or something. » You look like you're on a farm. » You look like you're on a farm. » You look like you're on a farm. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » I just been wrangling a llama. » I just been wrangling a llama. » I just been wrangling a llama. » And I was scared for my life. » And I was scared for my life. » And I was scared for my life. » Yes. » Yes. » Yes. » Take the photo quick. All right. » Take the photo quick. All right. » Take the photo quick. All right. Let him go. That's They're bigger. You Let him go. That's They're bigger. You Let him go. That's They're bigger. You know, they're always bigger than I know, they're always bigger than I know, they're always bigger than I realize. like from a distance you see realize. like from a distance you see realize. like from a distance you see him and then you walk up to them and him and then you walk up to them and him and then you walk up to them and kind of looking up to their head. kind of looking up to their head. kind of looking up to their head. » Well, and the funny thing is is we had » Well, and the funny thing is is we had » Well, and the funny thing is is we had him sheared and he had so much wool, but him sheared and he had so much wool, but him sheared and he had so much wool, but then when they sheared all the wool off, then when they sheared all the wool off, then when they sheared all the wool off, he looked like this tiny skinny little he looked like this tiny skinny little he looked like this tiny skinny little thing. Not very intimidating at all. thing. Not very intimidating at all. thing. Not very intimidating at all. » And I have hilarious pictures of him » And I have hilarious pictures of him » And I have hilarious pictures of him after he was sheared. But um yeah, after he was sheared. But um yeah, after he was sheared. But um yeah, » what uh what part of making the game was » what uh what part of making the game was » what uh what part of making the game was harder than you thought? I think I think probably the hardest thing for me is probably the hardest thing for me is probably the hardest thing for me is just like having the confidence in what just like having the confidence in what just like having the confidence in what I'm creating. I know I love it, but like I'm creating. I know I love it, but like I'm creating. I know I love it, but like believing that other people love it too believing that other people love it too believing that other people love it too is a little bit hard for me. And so just is a little bit hard for me. And so just is a little bit hard for me. And so just like having the confidence to actually like having the confidence to actually like having the confidence to actually do it, um that's probably the hardest do it, um that's probably the hardest do it, um that's probably the hardest part for me. part for me. part for me. » If I had been doing this all on my own, » If I had been doing this all on my own, » If I had been doing this all on my own, there's probably be a lot of other hard there's probably be a lot of other hard there's probably be a lot of other hard parts. parts. parts. » Sure. » Sure. » Sure. » But I had so much help. But but your » But I had so much help. But but your » But I had so much help. But but your game, it's all around you, though. I game, it's all around you, though. I game, it's all around you, though. I mean, regardless your idea, that's a mean, regardless your idea, that's a mean, regardless your idea, that's a vulnerable thing to say, "Yep, here's my vulnerable thing to say, "Yep, here's my vulnerable thing to say, "Yep, here's my game idea. Love it or hate it." And and game idea. Love it or hate it." And and game idea. Love it or hate it." And and your personality, too. And that's what I your personality, too. And that's what I your personality, too. And that's what I think is super cool about your story. I think is super cool about your story. I think is super cool about your story. I think a lot of really creative people think a lot of really creative people think a lot of really creative people never put themselves out there. To be never put themselves out there. To be never put themselves out there. To be fair, you had Brian pushing the whole fair, you had Brian pushing the whole fair, you had Brian pushing the whole time, right? Still pushing. time, right? Still pushing. time, right? Still pushing. » He's still pushing uh to help you get » He's still pushing uh to help you get » He's still pushing uh to help you get there, which is great. Um, but I think, there, which is great. Um, but I think, there, which is great. Um, but I think, you know, the best ideas will never be you know, the best ideas will never be you know, the best ideas will never be made. You know, I think people have made. You know, I think people have made. You know, I think people have great ideas and they never take it take great ideas and they never take it take great ideas and they never take it take it all the way regardless of if it's it all the way regardless of if it's it all the way regardless of if it's successful or not. Just being willing to successful or not. Just being willing to successful or not. Just being willing to put your creation out in the world. And put your creation out in the world. And put your creation out in the world. And » yeah, definitely. » yeah, definitely. » yeah, definitely. » Be ready to read some bad reviews. » Be ready to read some bad reviews. » Be ready to read some bad reviews. Hopefully good reviews, right? Hopefully good reviews, right? Hopefully good reviews, right? » I don't know if we've had » I don't know if we've had » I don't know if we've had maybe one jealous person, but maybe one jealous person, but maybe one jealous person, but » yeah, » yeah, » yeah, » that's about it. » that's about it. » that's about it. » I have a llama game. You can't do a » I have a llama game. You can't do a » I have a llama game. You can't do a llama game. Well, I mean, it's a llama. llama game. Well, I mean, it's a llama. llama game. Well, I mean, it's a llama. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » So, um Yeah. And I think so just being » So, um Yeah. And I think so just being » So, um Yeah. And I think so just being pushed out of my comfort zone, pushed out of my comfort zone, pushed out of my comfort zone, » it's been really good for me and » it's been really good for me and » it's been really good for me and stretched me in a lot of ways. And I stretched me in a lot of ways. And I stretched me in a lot of ways. And I feel like I've grown a lot as a person, feel like I've grown a lot as a person, feel like I've grown a lot as a person, even just doing working on this project. even just doing working on this project. even just doing working on this project. » Um but that's probably the hardest part » Um but that's probably the hardest part » Um but that's probably the hardest part is just being like, "All right, here's is just being like, "All right, here's is just being like, "All right, here's my thing I created. I hope you like it." my thing I created. I hope you like it." my thing I created. I hope you like it." And just selling it too. That's not my And just selling it too. That's not my And just selling it too. That's not my natural tendency. natural tendency. natural tendency. » Sure. » Sure. » Sure. » I just want people to Yeah. people. I » I just want people to Yeah. people. I » I just want people to Yeah. people. I just want people to be like, "Oh, I want just want people to be like, "Oh, I want just want people to be like, "Oh, I want that." Instead of me being like, "This that." Instead of me being like, "This that." Instead of me being like, "This is the greatest game and you want one." is the greatest game and you want one." is the greatest game and you want one." » Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. » Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. » Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. » So, » So, » So, » um, what compared to like making » um, what compared to like making » um, what compared to like making dresses, you go from which is kind of dresses, you go from which is kind of dresses, you go from which is kind of interesting, right? You were creating interesting, right? You were creating interesting, right? You were creating products already technically. products already technically. products already technically. » Um, so you'd already gone through that » Um, so you'd already gone through that » Um, so you'd already gone through that experience. Uh, well, what do you like experience. Uh, well, what do you like experience. Uh, well, what do you like more? Making a game or making a dress? more? Making a game or making a dress? more? Making a game or making a dress? » Oh, I don't know. That's » Oh, I don't know. That's » Oh, I don't know. That's » tomorrow you have to make a game or a » tomorrow you have to make a game or a » tomorrow you have to make a game or a dress. Which one do you choose? I dress. Which one do you choose? I dress. Which one do you choose? I probably game because that's kind of probably game because that's kind of probably game because that's kind of where I'm at in this season of life. But where I'm at in this season of life. But where I'm at in this season of life. But I still love I still love I still love » I love all the hobbies and crafts. I » I love all the hobbies and crafts. I » I love all the hobbies and crafts. I mean, I'm doing much more than just mean, I'm doing much more than just mean, I'm doing much more than just making games. making games. making games. » Sure. » Sure. » Sure. » I'm crocheting. I'm doing embroidery. I » I'm crocheting. I'm doing embroidery. I » I'm crocheting. I'm doing embroidery. I sew. sew. sew. » I like to make birthday cakes. Any type » I like to make birthday cakes. Any type » I like to make birthday cakes. Any type of creative outlet I enjoy. Um, but of creative outlet I enjoy. Um, but of creative outlet I enjoy. Um, but yeah, I mean, I'd probably I have lots yeah, I mean, I'd probably I have lots yeah, I mean, I'd probably I have lots of game ideas that are just waiting for of game ideas that are just waiting for of game ideas that are just waiting for me to take the time to start working on me to take the time to start working on me to take the time to start working on them. So, yeah, them. So, yeah, them. So, yeah, » if I was going to choose » if I was going to choose » if I was going to choose » Yeah. Be another game. » Yeah. Be another game. » Yeah. Be another game. » But I do sew occasionally still. Usually » But I do sew occasionally still. Usually » But I do sew occasionally still. Usually Halloween costumes for my kids. Halloween costumes for my kids. Halloween costumes for my kids. » Oh, yeah. I've seen those. Yeah, those » Oh, yeah. I've seen those. Yeah, those » Oh, yeah. I've seen those. Yeah, those are good. You make pretty amazing cakes. are good. You make pretty amazing cakes. are good. You make pretty amazing cakes. Birthday cakes, too. I've seen those. Birthday cakes, too. I've seen those. Birthday cakes, too. I've seen those. » We do enjoy that. Yeah. » We do enjoy that. Yeah. » We do enjoy that. Yeah. » Spend way too many hours making a cake » Spend way too many hours making a cake » Spend way too many hours making a cake that birthday decorations. that birthday decorations. that birthday decorations. It's gone now. Sorry. It was delicious. It's gone now. Sorry. It was delicious. It's gone now. Sorry. It was delicious. No, that's that's good. I I I respect No, that's that's good. I I I respect No, that's that's good. I I I respect that a lot. And I think the you know, that a lot. And I think the you know, that a lot. And I think the you know, you're already devaluing that it was a you're already devaluing that it was a you're already devaluing that it was a whole team effort or whatever. But I whole team effort or whatever. But I whole team effort or whatever. But I think even Tyler would testify who think even Tyler would testify who think even Tyler would testify who helped you with design, graphics, like helped you with design, graphics, like helped you with design, graphics, like the hardest part is the like the game the hardest part is the like the game the hardest part is the like the game play and the genesis and the idea and play and the genesis and the idea and play and the genesis and the idea and the character names and just the game the character names and just the game the character names and just the game play alone. Um, that's what I remember play alone. Um, that's what I remember play alone. Um, that's what I remember we always talked about like that was we always talked about like that was we always talked about like that was that was intimidating. Um, so when you that was intimidating. Um, so when you that was intimidating. Um, so when you think of other games now in game play, think of other games now in game play, think of other games now in game play, so take dueling llamas now. If you were so take dueling llamas now. If you were so take dueling llamas now. If you were to do another game, not how would you do to do another game, not how would you do to do another game, not how would you do dueling llamas better? That's not a fair dueling llamas better? That's not a fair dueling llamas better? That's not a fair question. question. question. » I don't think you could. » I don't think you could. » I don't think you could. » Exactly 100%. Um, but if you were to do » Exactly 100%. Um, but if you were to do » Exactly 100%. Um, but if you were to do another game like from what you've another game like from what you've another game like from what you've learned from dueling llamas, like what learned from dueling llamas, like what learned from dueling llamas, like what type of gameplay would you do next? what type of gameplay would you do next? what type of gameplay would you do next? I think the hardest thing about future I think the hardest thing about future I think the hardest thing about future games is that I feel like this one is so games is that I feel like this one is so games is that I feel like this one is so good. I want to create something at the good. I want to create something at the good. I want to create something at the same level that people will enjoy just same level that people will enjoy just same level that people will enjoy just as much. So that's really my challenge as much. So that's really my challenge as much. So that's really my challenge when I think about gameplay is I need it when I think about gameplay is I need it when I think about gameplay is I need it to be different obviously than this. to be different obviously than this. to be different obviously than this. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » But how can I make it so it's just as » But how can I make it so it's just as » But how can I make it so it's just as enjoyable? And so that's something I'm enjoyable? And so that's something I'm enjoyable? And so that's something I'm really thinking about as I'm thinking of really thinking about as I'm thinking of really thinking about as I'm thinking of games. Like okay, what other games. Like okay, what other games. Like okay, what other aspects can I put in this that will make aspects can I put in this that will make aspects can I put in this that will make it just as fun? What makes a game fun? it just as fun? What makes a game fun? it just as fun? What makes a game fun? » Um, I think luck. A lot of luck makes it » Um, I think luck. A lot of luck makes it » Um, I think luck. A lot of luck makes it fun. A lot of like kind of sneaky cards fun. A lot of like kind of sneaky cards fun. A lot of like kind of sneaky cards almost where you're almost where you're almost where you're » laying them and stealing things from » laying them and stealing things from » laying them and stealing things from people. And it depends on the person. I people. And it depends on the person. I people. And it depends on the person. I have some kids in my family who are have some kids in my family who are have some kids in my family who are like, like, like, » I don't like it to be about luck and » I don't like it to be about luck and » I don't like it to be about luck and other of us are like that's what we other of us are like that's what we other of us are like that's what we really enjoy. But ultimately, I think really enjoy. But ultimately, I think really enjoy. But ultimately, I think that's kind of what makes a game fun is that's kind of what makes a game fun is that's kind of what makes a game fun is when the shock and awe. when the shock and awe. when the shock and awe. » Yeah. It's not it's not something that » Yeah. It's not it's not something that » Yeah. It's not it's not something that is going to be the same every time. is going to be the same every time. is going to be the same every time. Yeah. So, Yeah. So, Yeah. So, » there's enough components in it that » there's enough components in it that » there's enough components in it that every game is different because you every game is different because you every game is different because you don't know what cards you're going to don't know what cards you're going to don't know what cards you're going to get or how you're going to play them. get or how you're going to play them. get or how you're going to play them. » Um and so, » Um and so, » Um and so, » yeah, just » yeah, just » yeah, just » I would say games with a good balance of » I would say games with a good balance of » I would say games with a good balance of strategy and luck are probably the sweet strategy and luck are probably the sweet strategy and luck are probably the sweet spot. spot. spot. » What's the right percentage of strategy » What's the right percentage of strategy » What's the right percentage of strategy and luck in your opinion? Right. Like and luck in your opinion? Right. Like and luck in your opinion? Right. Like what is the I know like I always think what is the I know like I always think what is the I know like I always think about that doing llamas. I'm always like about that doing llamas. I'm always like about that doing llamas. I'm always like I don't know what percent of strategy I I don't know what percent of strategy I I don't know what percent of strategy I put over luck on it. Like my my guts put over luck on it. Like my my guts put over luck on it. Like my my guts like 7030 or 8020 on best practices. like 7030 or 8020 on best practices. like 7030 or 8020 on best practices. » Yeah, probably. » Yeah, probably. » Yeah, probably. » Um but like so majority luck, minority » Um but like so majority luck, minority » Um but like so majority luck, minority strategy is your favorite type of strategy is your favorite type of strategy is your favorite type of » So yeah, and I don't want it to be so » So yeah, and I don't want it to be so » So yeah, and I don't want it to be so like there's a lot of great strategy like there's a lot of great strategy like there's a lot of great strategy games that I really enjoy, but they take games that I really enjoy, but they take games that I really enjoy, but they take a lot of time. to figure out how to play a lot of time. to figure out how to play a lot of time. to figure out how to play » and to remember when you pull them back » and to remember when you pull them back » and to remember when you pull them back out, you're like, "Wait, how do I play out, you're like, "Wait, how do I play out, you're like, "Wait, how do I play this?" this?" this?" » uh just like katan like and it's a long » uh just like katan like and it's a long » uh just like katan like and it's a long game and we love play. That's one of our game and we love play. That's one of our game and we love play. That's one of our favorite games. We play it with our favorite games. We play it with our favorite games. We play it with our kids. kids. kids. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » But it does take like it's a big » But it does take like it's a big » But it does take like it's a big investment when you're like we're going investment when you're like we're going investment when you're like we're going to have game night and be like, "All to have game night and be like, "All to have game night and be like, "All right, we're going to pull out Katan. right, we're going to pull out Katan. right, we're going to pull out Katan. Got to get it set up." Got to get it set up." Got to get it set up." » Haley's nightmare. remember the rules » Haley's nightmare. remember the rules » Haley's nightmare. remember the rules did not like games at all, you know, did not like games at all, you know, did not like games at all, you know, until we started playing games with you until we started playing games with you until we started playing games with you guys because you'd pull out games that guys because you'd pull out games that guys because you'd pull out games that we could play in 15 20 minutes and we could play in 15 20 minutes and we could play in 15 20 minutes and that's not as daunting. that's not as daunting. that's not as daunting. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Like, you know, you're going to finish » Like, you know, you're going to finish » Like, you know, you're going to finish it and life's busy or, you know, Yeah. it and life's busy or, you know, Yeah. it and life's busy or, you know, Yeah. » And it depends on like since we love » And it depends on like since we love » And it depends on like since we love games, we will play those more games, we will play those more games, we will play those more games that take more strategy and take longer that take more strategy and take longer that take more strategy and take longer and we enjoy that. But for just the and we enjoy that. But for just the and we enjoy that. But for just the average person that maybe is like, I average person that maybe is like, I average person that maybe is like, I don't want to invest, right, a ton of don't want to invest, right, a ton of don't want to invest, right, a ton of time in this, time in this, time in this, » Yeah. This is kind of like » Yeah. This is kind of like » Yeah. This is kind of like » it's like chess. I mean, chess is not » it's like chess. I mean, chess is not » it's like chess. I mean, chess is not just like a sit down and it's a blast just like a sit down and it's a blast just like a sit down and it's a blast every time. every time. every time. » I don't think I would ever choose to » I don't think I would ever choose to » I don't think I would ever choose to play chess. That's not play chess. That's not play chess. That's not » Yeah. Yeah. » Yeah. Yeah. » Yeah. Yeah. » That's not my favorite. » That's not my favorite. » That's not my favorite. » I'm not smart enough to play chess. » I'm not smart enough to play chess. » I'm not smart enough to play chess. That's my opinion. That's my opinion. That's my opinion. » Nor do I have the patience to sit still » Nor do I have the patience to sit still » Nor do I have the patience to sit still that long. that long. that long. » Um, no. That's good. Uh, so talk about » Um, no. That's good. Uh, so talk about » Um, no. That's good. Uh, so talk about books. So, you talked about writing books. So, you talked about writing books. So, you talked about writing books and you obviously tell a story books and you obviously tell a story books and you obviously tell a story with this game's kind of a story, too. with this game's kind of a story, too. with this game's kind of a story, too. Um, in a sense because the goal is Um, in a sense because the goal is Um, in a sense because the goal is » like we're all llama farmers and we have » like we're all llama farmers and we have » like we're all llama farmers and we have to get five llamas in our herd. Right. to get five llamas in our herd. Right. to get five llamas in our herd. Right. Right. Right. Right. » Llama ranchers. » Llama ranchers. » Llama ranchers. » Llama ranchers. That's right. Rancher. » Llama ranchers. That's right. Rancher. » Llama ranchers. That's right. Rancher. Do the voice. Tyler llamas. Do the voice. Tyler llamas. Do the voice. Tyler llamas. » I always forget. People have no clue a » I always forget. People have no clue a » I always forget. People have no clue a lot of videos that we put out that lot of videos that we put out that lot of videos that we put out that Norris is the voiceover for a lot of Norris is the voiceover for a lot of Norris is the voiceover for a lot of them because it doesn't sound like him them because it doesn't sound like him them because it doesn't sound like him at all. He's so good at voices. Uh, so at all. He's so good at voices. Uh, so at all. He's so good at voices. Uh, so yeah, go find go find that video on yeah, go find go find that video on yeah, go find go find that video on dillanlas.com dillanlas.com dillanlas.com and that's actually Tyler Norris's voice and that's actually Tyler Norris's voice and that's actually Tyler Norris's voice overlaid on that whole video. Um, yeah. overlaid on that whole video. Um, yeah. overlaid on that whole video. Um, yeah. So talk about that. You have been So talk about that. You have been So talk about that. You have been writing a little bit. writing a little bit. writing a little bit. » A little bit. Yeah, I mean I wrote » A little bit. Yeah, I mean I wrote » A little bit. Yeah, I mean I wrote » stories and books as a kid. Um, and then » stories and books as a kid. Um, and then » stories and books as a kid. Um, and then sometimes I'll get just a kind of idea sometimes I'll get just a kind of idea sometimes I'll get just a kind of idea and start typing out a book and I've got and start typing out a book and I've got and start typing out a book and I've got a couple of just like children's a couple of just like children's a couple of just like children's pictures books that I'd love to publish pictures books that I'd love to publish pictures books that I'd love to publish someday. Um, don't know, they may not be someday. Um, don't know, they may not be someday. Um, don't know, they may not be the ones. I might have other ones that the ones. I might have other ones that the ones. I might have other ones that are even better. I don't know yet. So, are even better. I don't know yet. So, are even better. I don't know yet. So, that's just a creative outlet for me that's just a creative outlet for me that's just a creative outlet for me that I really enjoy. Um, and I've got that I really enjoy. Um, and I've got that I really enjoy. Um, and I've got some ideas for some other books. And so some ideas for some other books. And so some ideas for some other books. And so that's a very slowm moving project that's a very slowm moving project that's a very slowm moving project that » I don't have a lot of time for, but » I don't have a lot of time for, but » I don't have a lot of time for, but someday I hope to. So, someday I hope to. So, someday I hope to. So, » so I think creativity is a complicated » so I think creativity is a complicated » so I think creativity is a complicated thing that takes like uh and I'm thing that takes like uh and I'm thing that takes like uh and I'm curious how this works in your mind or curious how this works in your mind or curious how this works in your mind or your emotional state, but like where's your emotional state, but like where's your emotional state, but like where's Stephanie at at her most creative? like Stephanie at at her most creative? like Stephanie at at her most creative? like what's happening where you start feeling what's happening where you start feeling what's happening where you start feeling really creative and you've like got to really creative and you've like got to really creative and you've like got to go cuz when you start making this game, go cuz when you start making this game, go cuz when you start making this game, right, you get obsessed and then you're right, you get obsessed and then you're right, you get obsessed and then you're all in on it. Um but you don't feel that all in on it. Um but you don't feel that all in on it. Um but you don't feel that way all the time. way all the time. way all the time. » No. Right. » No. Right. » No. Right. » No, for sure. And there's been seasons » No, for sure. And there's been seasons » No, for sure. And there's been seasons where I've felt very uncreative and like where I've felt very uncreative and like where I've felt very uncreative and like I don't even know if I should create I don't even know if I should create I don't even know if I should create more games. more games. more games. » Yeah. Um, but I think it really like » Yeah. Um, but I think it really like » Yeah. Um, but I think it really like there's when I when I get encouraged there's when I when I get encouraged there's when I when I get encouraged about something I've created, then it about something I've created, then it about something I've created, then it kind of spurs me on to be like, what kind of spurs me on to be like, what kind of spurs me on to be like, what else can I create? And then I get really else can I create? And then I get really else can I create? And then I get really excited about it and then I'm like, oh, excited about it and then I'm like, oh, excited about it and then I'm like, oh, this is really fun and then it just kind this is really fun and then it just kind this is really fun and then it just kind of snowballs and I sometimes can't stop of snowballs and I sometimes can't stop of snowballs and I sometimes can't stop and then at some point, and then at some point, and then at some point, » yeah, » yeah, » yeah, » I have real life and I have to like do » I have real life and I have to like do » I have real life and I have to like do something other than think about things something other than think about things something other than think about things I'm creating. Like I'm like, oh, I do I'm creating. Like I'm like, oh, I do I'm creating. Like I'm like, oh, I do have kids like how to feed. can't just have kids like how to feed. can't just have kids like how to feed. can't just think about my ideas all day. think about my ideas all day. think about my ideas all day. » Um, » Um, » Um, » so yeah, it just there are definitely » so yeah, it just there are definitely » so yeah, it just there are definitely seasons where I'm less creative and then seasons where I'm less creative and then seasons where I'm less creative and then other seasons where it just feels like other seasons where it just feels like other seasons where it just feels like there's a constant flow of ideas. there's a constant flow of ideas. there's a constant flow of ideas. » Do you uh tr I talk about triggers to » Do you uh tr I talk about triggers to » Do you uh tr I talk about triggers to action a lot and someone like me that's action a lot and someone like me that's action a lot and someone like me that's got probably I might have a little ADD, got probably I might have a little ADD, got probably I might have a little ADD, you know, little bit, I don't you know, little bit, I don't you know, little bit, I don't know, not diagnosed. Um, but like you know, not diagnosed. Um, but like you know, not diagnosed. Um, but like you know for me to like get into a pos know for me to like get into a pos know for me to like get into a position or posture to do something I position or posture to do something I position or posture to do something I kind of have to create these triggers or kind of have to create these triggers or kind of have to create these triggers or habits to get me into that mode. Um, and habits to get me into that mode. Um, and habits to get me into that mode. Um, and especially to like stay in that. Um, especially to like stay in that. Um, especially to like stay in that. Um, what's an example of something like what's an example of something like what's an example of something like do you start sewing and then you feel is do you start sewing and then you feel is do you start sewing and then you feel is there anything you just can do or do you there anything you just can do or do you there anything you just can do or do you start reading and then it you start to start reading and then it you start to start reading and then it you start to feel creative? feel creative? feel creative? » Um, it's kind of a hard vague question. » Um, it's kind of a hard vague question. » Um, it's kind of a hard vague question. » That's a hard question. You don't really » That's a hard question. You don't really » That's a hard question. You don't really know how it happens. For me, it's really know how it happens. For me, it's really know how it happens. For me, it's really just like just like just like » I'll suddenly get an idea in my head and » I'll suddenly get an idea in my head and » I'll suddenly get an idea in my head and I can either choose to like, I can either choose to like, I can either choose to like, » okay, well, I'm not going to think about » okay, well, I'm not going to think about » okay, well, I'm not going to think about that right now. Or if I'm like, "Oh, hm, that right now. Or if I'm like, "Oh, hm, that right now. Or if I'm like, "Oh, hm, I wonder I wonder I wonder » what that would be like." Then that » what that would be like." Then that » what that would be like." Then that starts kind of like getting my brain starts kind of like getting my brain starts kind of like getting my brain going and I just really start thinking going and I just really start thinking going and I just really start thinking of all sorts of ideas and where I'm of all sorts of ideas and where I'm of all sorts of ideas and where I'm like, "Okay, I need to sit down and like, "Okay, I need to sit down and like, "Okay, I need to sit down and start writing this all out before I start writing this all out before I start writing this all out before I forget." forget." forget." Um, so I don't know if there's a Um, so I don't know if there's a Um, so I don't know if there's a specific thing that I necessarily do specific thing that I necessarily do specific thing that I necessarily do that triggers it. It's just more like that triggers it. It's just more like that triggers it. It's just more like I'll be doing everyday life and suddenly I'll be doing everyday life and suddenly I'll be doing everyday life and suddenly some » sort of idea pops in my head and then » sort of idea pops in my head and then » sort of idea pops in my head and then it's like up to me. Okay, am I going to it's like up to me. Okay, am I going to it's like up to me. Okay, am I going to run with this or am I going to save this run with this or am I going to save this run with this or am I going to save this for later? Maybe. for later? Maybe. for later? Maybe. » Yeah. What's the fulfillment of like you » Yeah. What's the fulfillment of like you » Yeah. What's the fulfillment of like you experience something from an idea to it experience something from an idea to it experience something from an idea to it being finished? Um, and I think a lot of being finished? Um, and I think a lot of being finished? Um, and I think a lot of people don't get to experience that, people don't get to experience that, people don't get to experience that, right? or they might draw them on some right? or they might draw them on some right? or they might draw them on some cards and then it never goes past that cards and then it never goes past that cards and then it never goes past that point. Um, describe that feeling like point. Um, describe that feeling like point. Um, describe that feeling like ultimately the first one came in ultimately the first one came in ultimately the first one came in » and you had a game. » and you had a game. » and you had a game. » Yeah, it's super fulfilling. » Yeah, it's super fulfilling. » Yeah, it's super fulfilling. » Did you cry? » Did you cry? » Did you cry? » I did cry. But I was super happy. » I did cry. But I was super happy. » I did cry. But I was super happy. » There's something really cool about » There's something really cool about » There's something really cool about coming up with something and then seeing coming up with something and then seeing coming up with something and then seeing it in real life and being like, "Wow, it in real life and being like, "Wow, it in real life and being like, "Wow, this is something like tangible I can this is something like tangible I can this is something like tangible I can actually hold and touch." and like to actually hold and touch." and like to actually hold and touch." and like to see it and be like, I created this and see it and be like, I created this and see it and be like, I created this and now it's actually something and to know now it's actually something and to know now it's actually something and to know that it's going to other people's, it's that it's going to other people's, it's that it's going to other people's, it's in people's homes. And then to hear too in people's homes. And then to hear too in people's homes. And then to hear too from people just there's so many times from people just there's so many times from people just there's so many times where people be like, oh, this is our where people be like, oh, this is our where people be like, oh, this is our favorite game. And I never get tired of favorite game. And I never get tired of favorite game. And I never get tired of hearing those comments because to me hearing those comments because to me hearing those comments because to me it's just like makes me so happy it's just like makes me so happy it's just like makes me so happy » that I was able to create something » that I was able to create something » that I was able to create something that's in the real world that people are that's in the real world that people are that's in the real world that people are enjoying. Um, and same with even like enjoying. Um, and same with even like enjoying. Um, and same with even like when I was doing fashion design, making when I was doing fashion design, making when I was doing fashion design, making that um, line of clothes for the fashion that um, line of clothes for the fashion that um, line of clothes for the fashion show, when that went out on the stage, show, when that went out on the stage, show, when that went out on the stage, there's just this immense sense of like there's just this immense sense of like there's just this immense sense of like pride of like because you put so much pride of like because you put so much pride of like because you put so much hard work into it hard work into it hard work into it » and then to like see it going out into » and then to like see it going out into » and then to like see it going out into the world is just like this incredible the world is just like this incredible the world is just like this incredible feeling. It's a little addicting and it feeling. It's a little addicting and it feeling. It's a little addicting and it makes you want to do it more. makes you want to do it more. makes you want to do it more. » That's good. I mean, yeah, you think » That's good. I mean, yeah, you think » That's good. I mean, yeah, you think about people that are creative for a about people that are creative for a about people that are creative for a living. I'm sure it's living. I'm sure it's living. I'm sure it's » you at some point you're not creating » you at some point you're not creating » you at some point you're not creating for money. Um you're you're creating for money. Um you're you're creating for money. Um you're you're creating for » some experience and that experience can » some experience and that experience can » some experience and that experience can be someone having an experience with the be someone having an experience with the be someone having an experience with the thing you created. Yeah. And I hear you thing you created. Yeah. And I hear you thing you created. Yeah. And I hear you talk about that a lot. talk about that a lot. talk about that a lot. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » What your confidence level when that » What your confidence level when that » What your confidence level when that product showed up? product showed up? product showed up? » Um did you did your brain like unlock » Um did you did your brain like unlock » Um did you did your brain like unlock something maybe just a little bit more? something maybe just a little bit more? something maybe just a little bit more? Did you feel like you just had a little Did you feel like you just had a little Did you feel like you just had a little bit more in your mind or like were the bit more in your mind or like were the bit more in your mind or like were the possibilities like your opportunities possibilities like your opportunities possibilities like your opportunities did they seem bigger once you went from did they seem bigger once you went from did they seem bigger once you went from idea to now there's a physical product idea to now there's a physical product idea to now there's a physical product and now thousands have sold like and now thousands have sold like and now thousands have sold like thousands of these games have been sold thousands of these games have been sold thousands of these games have been sold all over the country and worldwide all over the country and worldwide all over the country and worldwide » and I just sent off a wire transfer this » and I just sent off a wire transfer this » and I just sent off a wire transfer this morning for our next shipment. So morning for our next shipment. So morning for our next shipment. So » we did that's crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Cuz I » we did that's crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Cuz I » we did that's crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Cuz I think you're on the verge of 5,000 games think you're on the verge of 5,000 games think you're on the verge of 5,000 games sold already, right? sold already, right? sold already, right? We sold over 10,000 including the We sold over 10,000 including the We sold over 10,000 including the expansion. expansion. expansion. » Oh, that's right. I forget about the » Oh, that's right. I forget about the » Oh, that's right. I forget about the expansion. expansion. expansion. » Yeah. So, including the expansion, » Yeah. So, including the expansion, » Yeah. So, including the expansion, » we didn't talk, » we didn't talk, » we didn't talk, » which I didn't bring it with me today. » which I didn't bring it with me today. » which I didn't bring it with me today. Although, there are expansion cards in Although, there are expansion cards in Although, there are expansion cards in there. there. there. » Well, when I show the dragon llama, » Well, when I show the dragon llama, » Well, when I show the dragon llama, » um, in the expansion pack, we need to » um, in the expansion pack, we need to » um, in the expansion pack, we need to talk about that. Those that like doing talk about that. Those that like doing talk about that. Those that like doing llamas, the expansion pack took another llamas, the expansion pack took another llamas, the expansion pack took another level of luck to this game and level of luck to this game and level of luck to this game and frustration » and heartache and sadness. » and heartache and sadness. » and heartache and sadness. » And that was actually really fun. It was » And that was actually really fun. It was » And that was actually really fun. It was really fun to create the expansion and I really fun to create the expansion and I really fun to create the expansion and I think when this came and I saw it in think when this came and I saw it in think when this came and I saw it in person, I just couldn't wait to do the person, I just couldn't wait to do the person, I just couldn't wait to do the expansion and I already had ideas before expansion and I already had ideas before expansion and I already had ideas before this was even here this was even here this was even here » of what I wanted to do for an expansion » of what I wanted to do for an expansion » of what I wanted to do for an expansion and it was just like and it was just like and it was just like » made me so excited like okay let's get » made me so excited like okay let's get » made me so excited like okay let's get let's get started working on this. So let's get started working on this. So let's get started working on this. So » yeah and creating the characters and » yeah and creating the characters and » yeah and creating the characters and the actions. What what's your favorite the actions. What what's your favorite the actions. What what's your favorite part of the game making process? Is it part of the game making process? Is it part of the game making process? Is it » is it the characters? coming up with the » is it the characters? coming up with the » is it the characters? coming up with the characters and like what they're going characters and like what they're going characters and like what they're going to do. So, probably the action llamas to do. So, probably the action llamas to do. So, probably the action llamas are my favorite is just figuring out are my favorite is just figuring out are my favorite is just figuring out » like » like » like » what are they going to be and what » what are they going to be and what » what are they going to be and what can we do with them and can we do with them and can we do with them and » how is it going to change the game? » how is it going to change the game? » how is it going to change the game? » Yeah, overall. Yeah. Yeah, that's good. » Yeah, overall. Yeah. Yeah, that's good. » Yeah, overall. Yeah. Yeah, that's good. I could see that. It it was really when I could see that. It it was really when I could see that. It it was really when you brought in the expansion pack ideas, you brought in the expansion pack ideas, you brought in the expansion pack ideas, there were so many there were so many there were so many » and I remember you trying to whittle » and I remember you trying to whittle » and I remember you trying to whittle them down too because you can't like do them down too because you can't like do them down too because you can't like do every idea and some could destroy every idea and some could destroy every idea and some could destroy game play. That's such a delicate but I game play. That's such a delicate but I game play. That's such a delicate but I can tell you're obsessed with it. can tell you're obsessed with it. can tell you're obsessed with it. » Well, and it's also like okay, what do I » Well, and it's also like okay, what do I » Well, and it's also like okay, what do I save for the next thing? So, I have save for the next thing? So, I have save for the next thing? So, I have there's several llamas I didn't even there's several llamas I didn't even there's several llamas I didn't even mention when we were talking about mention when we were talking about mention when we were talking about expansion cuz I'm like no, I think those expansion cuz I'm like no, I think those expansion cuz I'm like no, I think those need to be need to be need to be » for the next thing I'm going to do. So » for the next thing I'm going to do. So » for the next thing I'm going to do. So trying to decide and even in the trying to decide and even in the trying to decide and even in the original game trying to decide well original game trying to decide well original game trying to decide well » how far do I go you know because there's » how far do I go you know because there's » how far do I go you know because there's a lot of llamas in the expansion pack a lot of llamas in the expansion pack a lot of llamas in the expansion pack that would have been really fun in the that would have been really fun in the that would have been really fun in the original game but just deciding okay original game but just deciding okay original game but just deciding okay where do you stop where do you stop where do you stop » and where do you what do you save for » and where do you what do you save for » and where do you what do you save for the next thing the next thing the next thing » and so that's fun to do and it's fun to » and so that's fun to do and it's fun to » and so that's fun to do and it's fun to dream about all the different dream about all the different dream about all the different possibilities. possibilities. possibilities. » Can you tell us like one llama that no » Can you tell us like one llama that no » Can you tell us like one llama that no one knows about one knows about one knows about » that would do a certain action maybe? » that would do a certain action maybe? » that would do a certain action maybe? Um, I'd really like to have a myrrh Um, I'd really like to have a myrrh Um, I'd really like to have a myrrh llama. llama. llama. » Ooh, » Ooh, » Ooh, » that would be similar to a llama » that would be similar to a llama » that would be similar to a llama corn, but yeah. corn, but yeah. corn, but yeah. » Oh, okay. » Oh, okay. » Oh, okay. » That might show up in a future game. » That might show up in a future game. » That might show up in a future game. » Be a herd llama. Okay. » Be a herd llama. Okay. » Be a herd llama. Okay. » Also, a pirate llama might show up. » Also, a pirate llama might show up. » Also, a pirate llama might show up. » That's a good idea. » That's a good idea. » That's a good idea. » So, » So, » So, » is it going to look like Jack Black, but » is it going to look like Jack Black, but » is it going to look like Jack Black, but a llama? a llama? a llama? » Maybe. » Maybe. » Maybe. » That'd be awesome. Um, so go through the » That'd be awesome. Um, so go through the » That'd be awesome. Um, so go through the game play. How does the game work? Okay, game play. How does the game work? Okay, game play. How does the game work? Okay, so the goal of the game is to be the so the goal of the game is to be the so the goal of the game is to be the first one with five llamas in your herd. first one with five llamas in your herd. first one with five llamas in your herd. Um, on your turn, you draw two cards and Um, on your turn, you draw two cards and Um, on your turn, you draw two cards and you play three actions. Um, you're you play three actions. Um, you're you play three actions. Um, you're building up a bank that you're buying building up a bank that you're buying building up a bank that you're buying llamas with. The llamas cost $300. And llamas with. The llamas cost $300. And llamas with. The llamas cost $300. And so as you're doing that, you have people so as you're doing that, you have people so as you're doing that, you have people who are laying action llamas and they're who are laying action llamas and they're who are laying action llamas and they're trying to stop you and be the other the trying to stop you and be the other the trying to stop you and be the other the person who wins. So they might lay a person who wins. So they might lay a person who wins. So they might lay a ninja llama and steal a llama right out ninja llama and steal a llama right out ninja llama and steal a llama right out of your herd. They might lay the drama of your herd. They might lay the drama of your herd. They might lay the drama llama and skip your turn. They're llama and skip your turn. They're llama and skip your turn. They're basically trying to make your life as basically trying to make your life as basically trying to make your life as difficult as possible difficult as possible difficult as possible » so that you can't win. And so it just » so that you can't win. And so it just » so that you can't win. And so it just goes round until someone gets five goes round until someone gets five goes round until someone gets five llamas. llamas. llamas. » You know what I just thought of when » You know what I just thought of when » You know what I just thought of when you're saying that? Making life you're saying that? Making life you're saying that? Making life difficult. Do you need a spitting llama? difficult. Do you need a spitting llama? difficult. Do you need a spitting llama? » Hey, that's a good idea. Maybe. So, » Hey, that's a good idea. Maybe. So, » Hey, that's a good idea. Maybe. So, » what would the spitting llama do? » what would the spitting llama do? » what would the spitting llama do? » What would the action of the spit like? » What would the action of the spit like? » What would the action of the spit like? Do you get to spit on the person like if Do you get to spit on the person like if Do you get to spit on the person like if you play that? you play that? you play that? » We won't do that. » We won't do that. » We won't do that. That'd be pretty funny. That'd be pretty funny. That'd be pretty funny. » Maybe cost you some money or something. » Maybe cost you some money or something. » Maybe cost you some money or something. » Yeah. There you go. Clean up the spit. » Yeah. There you go. Clean up the spit. » Yeah. There you go. Clean up the spit. $50 fee. $50 fee. $50 fee. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. So that Yeah. So get to five, mess » Yeah. So that Yeah. So get to five, mess » Yeah. So that Yeah. So get to five, mess them up. And game play, right? It's I them up. And game play, right? It's I them up. And game play, right? It's I mean, two people you can play in mean, two people you can play in mean, two people you can play in » 10 minutes. » 10 minutes. » 10 minutes. » 10. Yeah. » 10. Yeah. » 10. Yeah. » Brian and I and that's the other thing I » Brian and I and that's the other thing I » Brian and I and that's the other thing I really like. So we really like to play really like. So we really like to play really like. So we really like to play two-player games cuz a lot of times two-player games cuz a lot of times two-player games cuz a lot of times Brian and I will play games together and Brian and I will play games together and Brian and I will play games together and it is hard to find games that play well it is hard to find games that play well it is hard to find games that play well with just two people. And that's with just two people. And that's with just two people. And that's something I like about this is that we something I like about this is that we something I like about this is that we can play dueling llamas and have a can play dueling llamas and have a can play dueling llamas and have a really fun time as two people, but then really fun time as two people, but then really fun time as two people, but then we can also play it in a big group and we can also play it in a big group and we can also play it in a big group and have just as much fun. And so that's have just as much fun. And so that's have just as much fun. And so that's something too when I'm creating games something too when I'm creating games something too when I'm creating games that I'm thinking about like I want this that I'm thinking about like I want this that I'm thinking about like I want this to be fun with just a few people or just to be fun with just a few people or just to be fun with just a few people or just a big group. And so how can I do that? a big group. And so how can I do that? a big group. And so how can I do that? » Yeah. Uh talk about uh manufacturing » Yeah. Uh talk about uh manufacturing » Yeah. Uh talk about uh manufacturing games. So, um, design brother draws it. games. So, um, design brother draws it. games. So, um, design brother draws it. Graphic designer Tyler puts it all Graphic designer Tyler puts it all Graphic designer Tyler puts it all together in the print queue and they together in the print queue and they together in the print queue and they provide, um, die lines, provide, um, die lines, provide, um, die lines, um, that you have to put all the um, that you have to put all the um, that you have to put all the graphics in, and then, uh, die lines for graphics in, and then, uh, die lines for graphics in, and then, uh, die lines for a box concept. a box concept. a box concept. That all gets sent to them. But you're That all gets sent to them. But you're That all gets sent to them. But you're the games are being made. You just did a the games are being made. You just did a the games are being made. You just did a wire transfer. So, the games are being wire transfer. So, the games are being wire transfer. So, the games are being made where? made where? made where? » Being made in China. » Being made in China. » Being made in China. » In China. » In China. » In China. » Yep. » Yep. » Yep. » And then how long does that take? Uh we » And then how long does that take? Uh we » And then how long does that take? Uh we probably won't see them till middle of probably won't see them till middle of probably won't see them till middle of summer. summer. summer. » So by the time they get made and then » So by the time they get made and then » So by the time they get made and then the shipping is really the shipping is really the shipping is really » they go on a boat, right? » they go on a boat, right? » they go on a boat, right? » Yeah. They go on a boat and they'll be » Yeah. They go on a boat and they'll be » Yeah. They go on a boat and they'll be shipped over here and that's what takes shipped over here and that's what takes shipped over here and that's what takes a long time really. a long time really. a long time really. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Pirate pirate. There you go. Yeah. Um so » Pirate pirate. There you go. Yeah. Um so » Pirate pirate. There you go. Yeah. Um so so middle of summer, so like June, July, so middle of summer, so like June, July, so middle of summer, so like June, July, » probably closer to July. » probably closer to July. » probably closer to July. » July. And just sent it in this week. So » July. And just sent it in this week. So » July. And just sent it in this week. So we're end of March. we're end of March. we're end of March. » Yeah. Um, so yeah. So three » Yeah. Um, so yeah. So three » Yeah. Um, so yeah. So three months. months. months. » Three to four months depend as long as » Three to four months depend as long as » Three to four months depend as long as everything go like everything go like everything go like » nothing. » nothing. » nothing. » That says everything goes well. We don't » That says everything goes well. We don't » That says everything goes well. We don't lose the container somewhere. lose the container somewhere. lose the container somewhere. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » In the ocean. » In the ocean. » In the ocean. » The boat doesn't sink. That would be a » The boat doesn't sink. That would be a » The boat doesn't sink. That would be a problem. Yeah. Do problem. Yeah. Do problem. Yeah. Do » you have insurance for that? » you have insurance for that? » you have insurance for that? » Ask Brian. » Ask Brian. » Ask Brian. » Ask Brian. He'll know. » Ask Brian. He'll know. » Ask Brian. He'll know. » Um, so now talk about you just started » Um, so now talk about you just started » Um, so now talk about you just started pushing it again. Mhm. pushing it again. Mhm. pushing it again. Mhm. » So now let's talk about the part that's » So now let's talk about the part that's » So now let's talk about the part that's not as fun for you that you are not as fun for you that you are not as fun for you that you are developing in which is marketing it, developing in which is marketing it, developing in which is marketing it, promoting it, distributing it. promoting it, distributing it. promoting it, distributing it. » Um you just went to Toyf Fair in New » Um you just went to Toyf Fair in New » Um you just went to Toyf Fair in New York City York City York City » uh and ran a booth like the largest I » uh and ran a booth like the largest I » uh and ran a booth like the largest I was there. You helped us. was there. You helped us. was there. You helped us. » I was there to help. » I was there to help. » I was there to help. » Uh what was that experience like » Uh what was that experience like » Uh what was that experience like for you seeing all the I mean there's a for you seeing all the I mean there's a for you seeing all the I mean there's a lot there. Talk about that. It felt kind lot there. Talk about that. It felt kind lot there. Talk about that. It felt kind of crazy because it's I think the of crazy because it's I think the of crazy because it's I think the biggest toy fair in the US and so it biggest toy fair in the US and so it biggest toy fair in the US and so it felt crazy to be alongside these other felt crazy to be alongside these other felt crazy to be alongside these other really big toy brands like Mattel and really big toy brands like Mattel and really big toy brands like Mattel and Taiini Baby and Melissa and Doug and Taiini Baby and Melissa and Doug and Taiini Baby and Melissa and Doug and like » to be like I have a booth here. They » to be like I have a booth here. They » to be like I have a booth here. They weren't right next to us obviously. They weren't right next to us obviously. They weren't right next to us obviously. They had you know special floors for them. had you know special floors for them. had you know special floors for them. » They had their own » They had their own » They had their own » but to be in the same space um was » but to be in the same space um was » but to be in the same space um was pretty cool. I will admit I Brian signed pretty cool. I will admit I Brian signed pretty cool. I will admit I Brian signed us up for it and I was not very happy us up for it and I was not very happy us up for it and I was not very happy when I found out that's what we were be when I found out that's what we were be when I found out that's what we were be going to be doing. going to be doing. going to be doing. » Uh because it's not it was another like » Uh because it's not it was another like » Uh because it's not it was another like pulling me out of my hearing this name pulling me out of my hearing this name pulling me out of my hearing this name Brian Boswell. Go check out his podcast Brian Boswell. Go check out his podcast Brian Boswell. Go check out his podcast episode and a lot of this will make episode and a lot of this will make episode and a lot of this will make sense. sense. sense. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. Watch that. » Yeah. Watch that. » Yeah. Watch that. » Just a little bit of a go-getter. Yeah. » Just a little bit of a go-getter. Yeah. » Just a little bit of a go-getter. Yeah. Got a little bit energy. Got a little bit energy. Got a little bit energy. » So that um » So that um » So that um yeah, it was another of like really yeah, it was another of like really yeah, it was another of like really pushing me out of my comfort zone. So, I pushing me out of my comfort zone. So, I pushing me out of my comfort zone. So, I was not thrilled that he was like, "Hey, was not thrilled that he was like, "Hey, was not thrilled that he was like, "Hey, guess what we're going to be doing?" guess what we're going to be doing?" guess what we're going to be doing?" Like, Like, Like, » yeah, » yeah, » yeah, » I don't really want to do that. » I don't really want to do that. » I don't really want to do that. » Sounds like a nightmare. » Sounds like a nightmare. » Sounds like a nightmare. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Um, but it actually like once we got » Um, but it actually like once we got » Um, but it actually like once we got there and started doing it and it I was there and started doing it and it I was there and started doing it and it I was like, "Oh, okay. I can do this. I can do like, "Oh, okay. I can do this. I can do like, "Oh, okay. I can do this. I can do uncomfortable things, which I don't love uncomfortable things, which I don't love uncomfortable things, which I don't love standing there and talking to strangers, standing there and talking to strangers, standing there and talking to strangers, but the more you do it, the more but the more you do it, the more but the more you do it, the more comfortable you get doing that." Um, we comfortable you get doing that." Um, we comfortable you get doing that." Um, we made a lot of great connections and that made a lot of great connections and that made a lot of great connections and that was really the goal, um, is to make good was really the goal, um, is to make good was really the goal, um, is to make good connections with people. We'd love, we connections with people. We'd love, we connections with people. We'd love, we want to partner with the distributor and want to partner with the distributor and want to partner with the distributor and have it show up in more stores around have it show up in more stores around have it show up in more stores around the US and so that was kind of our goal the US and so that was kind of our goal the US and so that was kind of our goal for being there. Um, so we're kind of in for being there. Um, so we're kind of in for being there. Um, so we're kind of in the process of figuring that out right the process of figuring that out right the process of figuring that out right now. now. now. » Um, but that's the hope » Um, but that's the hope » Um, but that's the hope » and I would say it kind of went through » and I would say it kind of went through » and I would say it kind of went through a lull for a while cuz we weren't doing a lull for a while cuz we weren't doing a lull for a while cuz we weren't doing a whole lot with it, but now we're kind a whole lot with it, but now we're kind a whole lot with it, but now we're kind of like, okay, of like, okay, of like, okay, » let's get it moving. I'm ready to make » let's get it moving. I'm ready to make » let's get it moving. I'm ready to make more things. So, I need this to take more things. So, I need this to take more things. So, I need this to take off. off. off. » You need that to go » You need that to go » You need that to go » so that it can support my my other » so that it can support my my other » so that it can support my my other ideas. ideas. ideas. » Um, so that's kind of » Um, so that's kind of » Um, so that's kind of » And you've been putting out a lot more » And you've been putting out a lot more » And you've been putting out a lot more content on Facebook. Been editing. content on Facebook. Been editing. content on Facebook. Been editing. » Also, something I don't love. I'm not » Also, something I don't love. I'm not » Also, something I don't love. I'm not into being a content creator, but I'm into being a content creator, but I'm into being a content creator, but I'm I'm fumbling my way through it. I'm fumbling my way through it. I'm fumbling my way through it. » Yeah, you're doing a little bit of it. » Yeah, you're doing a little bit of it. » Yeah, you're doing a little bit of it. Um, so talk about that model with Um, so talk about that model with Um, so talk about that model with the distribution. And so you're trying the distribution. And so you're trying the distribution. And so you're trying to get distributors that represent a lot to get distributors that represent a lot to get distributors that represent a lot of retailers to represent the game. of retailers to represent the game. of retailers to represent the game. » Yes. » Yes. » Yes. » And really um I mean someday I'd love to » And really um I mean someday I'd love to » And really um I mean someday I'd love to see it in Walmart or Target, but I think see it in Walmart or Target, but I think see it in Walmart or Target, but I think the first step is really just getting it the first step is really just getting it the first step is really just getting it even into lots of different game stores even into lots of different game stores even into lots of different game stores and the more it's in front of people and the more it's in front of people and the more it's in front of people and selling then you start pursuing those selling then you start pursuing those selling then you start pursuing those bigger » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » bigger stores. So we'll see. I feel like » bigger stores. So we'll see. I feel like » bigger stores. So we'll see. I feel like the possibilities are kind of endless the possibilities are kind of endless the possibilities are kind of endless with it. with it. with it. » Yeah. Uh it's just kind of one of those » Yeah. Uh it's just kind of one of those » Yeah. Uh it's just kind of one of those like it's there's a lot of waiting and a like it's there's a lot of waiting and a like it's there's a lot of waiting and a lot of lot of lot of » Yeah. a lot of talking. » Yeah. a lot of talking. » Yeah. a lot of talking. » One little step at a time. » One little step at a time. » One little step at a time. » Yeah. Uh and there's been some great » Yeah. Uh and there's been some great » Yeah. Uh and there's been some great stories of places you would never think stories of places you would never think stories of places you would never think that would sell dueling llamas that have that would sell dueling llamas that have that would sell dueling llamas that have sold a lot of dueling llamas. sold a lot of dueling llamas. sold a lot of dueling llamas. » Like a coffee shop. » Like a coffee shop. » Like a coffee shop. » Like a coffee shop right over here. » Like a coffee shop right over here. » Like a coffee shop right over here. » Brco to go. Uh but yeah, Br sold a lot » Brco to go. Uh but yeah, Br sold a lot » Brco to go. Uh but yeah, Br sold a lot of cases and it's just of cases and it's just of cases and it's just » I just got another order recently. So » I just got another order recently. So » I just got another order recently. So » thanks Caitlyn. » thanks Caitlyn. » thanks Caitlyn. » Yeah. Yeah, Caitlyn keeps us busy. » Yeah. Yeah, Caitlyn keeps us busy. » Yeah. Yeah, Caitlyn keeps us busy. » Yeah, that's awesome. And I I just think » Yeah, that's awesome. And I I just think » Yeah, that's awesome. And I I just think that's unique because and I think you that's unique because and I think you that's unique because and I think you can credit a lot of it to the box can credit a lot of it to the box can credit a lot of it to the box design. It looks like an awesome gift. design. It looks like an awesome gift. design. It looks like an awesome gift. » Um but yeah, people going into a coffee » Um but yeah, people going into a coffee » Um but yeah, people going into a coffee shop and buying, shop and buying, shop and buying, » you know, she's ordering cases of games, » you know, she's ordering cases of games, » you know, she's ordering cases of games, buying games out of there, and she buying games out of there, and she buying games out of there, and she doesn't have any other games, doesn't have any other games, doesn't have any other games, » right? Yeah. » right? Yeah. » right? Yeah. » So, in my mind, it makes sense that you » So, in my mind, it makes sense that you » So, in my mind, it makes sense that you put this in like actual game stores put this in like actual game stores put this in like actual game stores » that it should sell, right? » that it should sell, right? » that it should sell, right? » It should sell, right? So, » It should sell, right? So, » It should sell, right? So, » yeah. And that's something we heard a » yeah. And that's something we heard a » yeah. And that's something we heard a lot just in New York from people that lot just in New York from people that lot just in New York from people that were coming by like, "Oh, we love the were coming by like, "Oh, we love the were coming by like, "Oh, we love the design of this box." design of this box." design of this box." » And I mean, credit goes to Tyler for » And I mean, credit goes to Tyler for » And I mean, credit goes to Tyler for that. I I don't think it would look this that. I I don't think it would look this that. I I don't think it would look this cool if we didn't have him coming up cool if we didn't have him coming up cool if we didn't have him coming up with that. But with that. But with that. But » um it is interesting though. It is a » um it is interesting though. It is a » um it is interesting though. It is a hard thing for manufacturers to actually hard thing for manufacturers to actually hard thing for manufacturers to actually manufacture. Yeah. So, we've we've manufacture. Yeah. So, we've we've manufacture. Yeah. So, we've we've tried to get some quotes from some other tried to get some quotes from some other tried to get some quotes from some other manufacturers and they're like, manufacturers and they're like, manufacturers and they're like, » "You can't do the tongue." » "You can't do the tongue." » "You can't do the tongue." » The tongue. It is cuz the on the box you » The tongue. It is cuz the on the box you » The tongue. It is cuz the on the box you pull the tongue and the box opens. And pull the tongue and the box opens. And pull the tongue and the box opens. And another cool thing about the box is another cool thing about the box is another cool thing about the box is there was extra space. there was extra space. there was extra space. » Yes. » Yes. » Yes. » Uh » Uh » Uh uh pre for the expansion pack. Extra uh pre for the expansion pack. Extra uh pre for the expansion pack. Extra space. So, you could store the expansion space. So, you could store the expansion space. So, you could store the expansion pack in there as well, which works pack in there as well, which works pack in there as well, which works great. Um, but yeah, the tongue I great. Um, but yeah, the tongue I great. Um, but yeah, the tongue I remember that was when took a while for remember that was when took a while for remember that was when took a while for them to figure it out when Tyler sent it them to figure it out when Tyler sent it them to figure it out when Tyler sent it to him. And the first tongue they sent to him. And the first tongue they sent to him. And the first tongue they sent us, I remember. us, I remember. us, I remember. » Yeah. It was really thick. I should have » Yeah. It was really thick. I should have » Yeah. It was really thick. I should have brought the original ribbon. I mean, it brought the original ribbon. I mean, it brought the original ribbon. I mean, it was like a little pinky. It was like was like a little pinky. It was like was like a little pinky. It was like nothing. nothing. nothing. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Um, but yeah, may I mean and I think » Um, but yeah, may I mean and I think » Um, but yeah, may I mean and I think that's why some people, you know, $25 that's why some people, you know, $25 that's why some people, you know, $25 for a card game seems like a lot, but for a card game seems like a lot, but for a card game seems like a lot, but once you actually see it and hold it and once you actually see it and hold it and once you actually see it and hold it and that's made, you know, and that's made, you know, and that's made, you know, and » helped you with the e-commerce side a » helped you with the e-commerce side a » helped you with the e-commerce side a little bit. the e-commerce side can little bit. the e-commerce side can little bit. the e-commerce side can be hard at that price point, but once be hard at that price point, but once be hard at that price point, but once they understand how big it is and how they understand how big it is and how they understand how big it is and how big the game is, big the game is, big the game is, » right? And » right? And » right? And » it's very well made. » it's very well made. » it's very well made. » Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's a solid box. » Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's a solid box. » Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's a solid box. If you put that box, by the way, If you put that box, by the way, If you put that box, by the way, » do not put it in the wrong way. » do not put it in the wrong way. » do not put it in the wrong way. » Go buy Dueling Llamas. Please go buy it » Go buy Dueling Llamas. Please go buy it » Go buy Dueling Llamas. Please go buy it today on dueling llamas.com. But if you today on dueling llamas.com. But if you today on dueling llamas.com. But if you put this in the wrong way, which is very put this in the wrong way, which is very put this in the wrong way, which is very easy to do with your kids cuz right, it easy to do with your kids cuz right, it easy to do with your kids cuz right, it makes sense. It's just sitting there. makes sense. It's just sitting there. makes sense. It's just sitting there. And so they just think, well, oh, sorry. And so they just think, well, oh, sorry. And so they just think, well, oh, sorry. They think this is the top. And so they They think this is the top. And so they They think this is the top. And so they just go like this to put it on top and just go like this to put it on top and just go like this to put it on top and that thing vacuum seals shut. You can that thing vacuum seals shut. You can that thing vacuum seals shut. You can get it out, but it's hard. Uh but it get it out, but it's hard. Uh but it get it out, but it's hard. Uh but it then you kind of feel like an idiot then you kind of feel like an idiot then you kind of feel like an idiot because it's designed to go to where the because it's designed to go to where the because it's designed to go to where the ears finished the llama. Tada. ears finished the llama. Tada. ears finished the llama. Tada. Yeah, that's a great box. But Yeah, that's a great box. But Yeah, that's a great box. But yeah, that makes sense. It was hard in yeah, that makes sense. It was hard in yeah, that makes sense. It was hard in the beginning and I'm sure now you're the beginning and I'm sure now you're the beginning and I'm sure now you're kind of tied to that one manufacturer kind of tied to that one manufacturer kind of tied to that one manufacturer that figured it out that figured it out that figured it out » for now. » for now. » for now. » For now, tell someone else. Yeah. Um » For now, tell someone else. Yeah. Um » For now, tell someone else. Yeah. Um what other uh so you got the new what other uh so you got the new what other uh so you got the new order coming in um just the game coming order coming in um just the game coming order coming in um just the game coming in in in » and you've got Yeah. You've got because » and you've got Yeah. You've got because » and you've got Yeah. You've got because expansion packs. expansion packs. expansion packs. Yeah. And those are the smaller packs Yeah. And those are the smaller packs Yeah. And those are the smaller packs » and those are a lot easier. » and those are a lot easier. » and those are a lot easier. » Oh yeah. » Oh yeah. » Oh yeah. » To get made » To get made » To get made small and small and small and » Yeah. They don't have the same » Yeah. They don't have the same » Yeah. They don't have the same components. components. components. » What's the best like what's the best » What's the best like what's the best » What's the best like what's the best overall review or experience you've overall review or experience you've overall review or experience you've witnessed of someone loving the game? witnessed of someone loving the game? witnessed of someone loving the game? Um, I don't know if I have one that one Um, I don't know if I have one that one Um, I don't know if I have one that one specific one that stands out, but I just specific one that stands out, but I just specific one that stands out, but I just think the thing that I keep hearing from think the thing that I keep hearing from think the thing that I keep hearing from people is just like, people is just like, people is just like, » we love this game and we keep playing » we love this game and we keep playing » we love this game and we keep playing it. Like, and that's the thing that I it. Like, and that's the thing that I it. Like, and that's the thing that I love to hear is like it's not just like, love to hear is like it's not just like, love to hear is like it's not just like, oh, we played it and we enjoyed it, but oh, we played it and we enjoyed it, but oh, we played it and we enjoyed it, but it's like the game people keep going it's like the game people keep going it's like the game people keep going back to and they keep playing it and back to and they keep playing it and back to and they keep playing it and they're like, I have friends that will they're like, I have friends that will they're like, I have friends that will say like, oh, we played this like so say like, oh, we played this like so say like, oh, we played this like so many times this week and that I just many times this week and that I just many times this week and that I just love that. And I love too just like love that. And I love too just like love that. And I love too just like thinking about thinking about thinking about » the connection that the that people are » the connection that the that people are » the connection that the that people are making with their friends or family that making with their friends or family that making with their friends or family that they're playing this just on a really they're playing this just on a really they're playing this just on a really regular basis. And so that's like the regular basis. And so that's like the regular basis. And so that's like the best compliment to me knowing that best compliment to me knowing that best compliment to me knowing that people love it and then they just keep people love it and then they just keep people love it and then they just keep playing it. And I know a lot I've heard playing it. And I know a lot I've heard playing it. And I know a lot I've heard a lot of people say like this is like a lot of people say like this is like a lot of people say like this is like one of those games that you one of those games that you one of those games that you » you know that everyone should have » you know that everyone should have » you know that everyone should have as like a family game. as like a family game. as like a family game. » It's like just like Unos sitting in » It's like just like Unos sitting in » It's like just like Unos sitting in every cupboard. every cupboard. every cupboard. » Yeah. Like it should be in every » Yeah. Like it should be in every » Yeah. Like it should be in every house. That's something I've heard house. That's something I've heard house. That's something I've heard people say and that to me is just best people say and that to me is just best people say and that to me is just best compliment. compliment. compliment. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Well, yeah. Just like anything, you » Well, yeah. Just like anything, you » Well, yeah. Just like anything, you know, it's it's momentum referrals and I know, it's it's momentum referrals and I know, it's it's momentum referrals and I mean, you're selling you're selling mean, you're selling you're selling mean, you're selling you're selling games every day without even marketing, games every day without even marketing, games every day without even marketing, you know, and that tells you a lot about you know, and that tells you a lot about you know, and that tells you a lot about the referral network of people telling the referral network of people telling the referral network of people telling people about the game, which is cool to people about the game, which is cool to people about the game, which is cool to see just organic sales, right, see just organic sales, right, see just organic sales, right, » happening all over that you're like, » happening all over that you're like, » happening all over that you're like, "Oh, I wonder how they heard about it." "Oh, I wonder how they heard about it." "Oh, I wonder how they heard about it." Right? Be great to know. Right? Be great to know. Right? Be great to know. » Yeah. Um, the coolest story I've heard, » Yeah. Um, the coolest story I've heard, » Yeah. Um, the coolest story I've heard, and you might remember this, is that a and you might remember this, is that a and you might remember this, is that a family played so intensely, well, two family played so intensely, well, two family played so intensely, well, two actually. I have two. Uh, they got a actually. I have two. Uh, they got a actually. I have two. Uh, they got a picture of a llama mounted over their picture of a llama mounted over their picture of a llama mounted over their game table. game table. game table. » Oh, okay. I don't know if I've heard » Oh, okay. I don't know if I've heard » Oh, okay. I don't know if I've heard this. this. this. » And they would hang it. Keith Eubanks. » And they would hang it. Keith Eubanks. » And they would hang it. Keith Eubanks. » Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. » Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. » Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. » They would hang the giant like portrait » They would hang the giant like portrait » They would hang the giant like portrait of a llama that they just found at like of a llama that they just found at like of a llama that they just found at like a thrift store or something. They'd hang a thrift store or something. They'd hang a thrift store or something. They'd hang it every time they played. It's kind of it every time they played. It's kind of it every time they played. It's kind of like a monument. It was They were so like a monument. It was They were so like a monument. It was They were so into it. into it. into it. I feel like we are maybe a little lame. I feel like we are maybe a little lame. I feel like we are maybe a little lame. I've got to start hanging up. I've got to start hanging up. I've got to start hanging up. » I know, right? It's like, oh, it's llama » I know, right? It's like, oh, it's llama » I know, right? It's like, oh, it's llama time. Uh, the other one was a I think it time. Uh, the other one was a I think it time. Uh, the other one was a I think it was like a senior like a assisted living was like a senior like a assisted living was like a senior like a assisted living place » and they were playing for money. » and they were playing for money. » and they were playing for money. » Oh, right. Yeah. » Oh, right. Yeah. » Oh, right. Yeah. » And like Oklahoma and they sent in like » And like Oklahoma and they sent in like » And like Oklahoma and they sent in like they everybody loves it. They play it they everybody loves it. They play it they everybody loves it. They play it all the time. There's like a cash prize all the time. There's like a cash prize all the time. There's like a cash prize every game. Everybody puts in some money every game. Everybody puts in some money every game. Everybody puts in some money every round cuz you can play so fast. every round cuz you can play so fast. every round cuz you can play so fast. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. » And it like became a staple in this » And it like became a staple in this » And it like became a staple in this little assisted living community, little assisted living community, little assisted living community, » which is so cool. » which is so cool. » which is so cool. » I know. How cool is that? Like we need » I know. How cool is that? Like we need » I know. How cool is that? Like we need to play for We need to play for money. to play for We need to play for money. to play for We need to play for money. We've never done that. Play for some We've never done that. Play for some We've never done that. Play for some quarters. quarters. quarters. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Be fun. I mean, you can play, » Be fun. I mean, you can play, » Be fun. I mean, you can play, » right? Exactly. Yes. Stephanie is also » right? Exactly. Yes. Stephanie is also » right? Exactly. Yes. Stephanie is also very competitive. Talk about that. I am. very competitive. Talk about that. I am. very competitive. Talk about that. I am. » How much of your love for games cuz my » How much of your love for games cuz my » How much of your love for games cuz my favorite thing is watching you lose cuz favorite thing is watching you lose cuz favorite thing is watching you lose cuz you get mad cuz I get really upset and you get mad cuz I get really upset and you get mad cuz I get really upset and it's adorable when you get mad. But like it's adorable when you get mad. But like it's adorable when you get mad. But like how much of that has driven your love how much of that has driven your love how much of that has driven your love for games? is just kind of also for games? is just kind of also for games? is just kind of also being competitive cuz there's the fun, being competitive cuz there's the fun, being competitive cuz there's the fun, the joy. the joy. the joy. » Yeah. And I think that's part of like » Yeah. And I think that's part of like » Yeah. And I think that's part of like that has helped me in like designing that has helped me in like designing that has helped me in like designing certain llamas because I'm like, "Ooh, certain llamas because I'm like, "Ooh, certain llamas because I'm like, "Ooh, this is a great llama to like get back this is a great llama to like get back this is a great llama to like get back at someone." at someone." at someone." » I like revenge. I really like revenge. » I like revenge. I really like revenge. » I like revenge. I really like revenge. » Only in card games. » Only in card games. » Only in card games. » Um but yeah, » Um but yeah, » Um but yeah, » but don't cross me. » but don't cross me. » but don't cross me. » Yeah. Um so yeah, I just I am » Yeah. Um so yeah, I just I am » Yeah. Um so yeah, I just I am competitive. I really like to win games competitive. I really like to win games competitive. I really like to win games and it's it's fun to have just those and it's it's fun to have just those and it's it's fun to have just those components in a game where you can the components in a game where you can the components in a game where you can the thing that someone could have four thing that someone could have four thing that someone could have four llamas and you think they're about to llamas and you think they're about to llamas and you think they're about to win and suddenly you have just the right win and suddenly you have just the right win and suddenly you have just the right cards and you just take them down to cards and you just take them down to cards and you just take them down to nothing. nothing. nothing. » And that's the most fun. » And that's the most fun. » And that's the most fun. » Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. » Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. » Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. » That's that's great. Um, so like going » That's that's great. Um, so like going » That's that's great. Um, so like going back like if you could do anything back like if you could do anything back like if you could do anything differently in that process of differently in that process of differently in that process of uh from beginning to end. So, like when uh from beginning to end. So, like when uh from beginning to end. So, like when you do the next game and not you do the next game and not you do the next game and not necessarily like gameplay or anything, necessarily like gameplay or anything, necessarily like gameplay or anything, but like having a system process for the but like having a system process for the but like having a system process for the next game, do you have any like do you next game, do you have any like do you next game, do you have any like do you think you have any efficiencies in your think you have any efficiencies in your think you have any efficiencies in your mind now from what you've learned um or mind now from what you've learned um or mind now from what you've learned um or where to sell them or how to talk about where to sell them or how to talk about where to sell them or how to talk about them or them or them or » um I think we've we've learned a lot » um I think we've we've learned a lot » um I think we've we've learned a lot since first starting out and I think since first starting out and I think since first starting out and I think just um we just know a lot more just um we just know a lot more just um we just know a lot more » now. So, I think yeah, just we have » now. So, I think yeah, just we have » now. So, I think yeah, just we have connections. we already have like fans connections. we already have like fans connections. we already have like fans and a following and so I think that and a following and so I think that and a following and so I think that helps so much and just um I think just helps so much and just um I think just helps so much and just um I think just moving quicker is kind of where we're moving quicker is kind of where we're moving quicker is kind of where we're at. Um we've at. Um we've at. Um we've » moved pretty slow » moved pretty slow » moved pretty slow » with this and so like if I could do » with this and so like if I could do » with this and so like if I could do something different it would just be to something different it would just be to something different it would just be to pick up the pace pick up the pace pick up the pace » but I mean it's this is our side hustle. » but I mean it's this is our side hustle. » but I mean it's this is our side hustle. we have a million other things on our we have a million other things on our we have a million other things on our plates » and so it's that balance of » and so it's that balance of » and so it's that balance of » how much do we put into it and » how much do we put into it and » how much do we put into it and » how much time do we have to really » how much time do we have to really » how much time do we have to really devote to it but I'd love for it to be devote to it but I'd love for it to be devote to it but I'd love for it to be » a full-time thing. » a full-time thing. » a full-time thing. » Yeah. Yeah. Is your dream to just be » Yeah. Yeah. Is your dream to just be » Yeah. Yeah. Is your dream to just be creating and then there's happens to be creating and then there's happens to be creating and then there's happens to be a business behind it? a business behind it? a business behind it? » I think so. Yeah. Yeah. I would love to » I think so. Yeah. Yeah. I would love to » I think so. Yeah. Yeah. I would love to just keep creating games and have a just keep creating games and have a just keep creating games and have a great team of people that just help me great team of people that just help me great team of people that just help me execute it. Yeah. And um that's really execute it. Yeah. And um that's really execute it. Yeah. And um that's really the that's my dream. the that's my dream. the that's my dream. » That's what I love to do is the whole » That's what I love to do is the whole » That's what I love to do is the whole creative process. creative process. creative process. » Yeah. If a large game uh brand came to » Yeah. If a large game uh brand came to » Yeah. If a large game uh brand came to you and said, "Hey, we want this and we you and said, "Hey, we want this and we you and said, "Hey, we want this and we want you to make a lot of games." want you to make a lot of games." want you to make a lot of games." » That would be my dream job. » That would be my dream job. » That would be my dream job. » That would be your dream job. Yeah. » That would be your dream job. Yeah. » That would be your dream job. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. » So, if anyone's out there » So, if anyone's out there » So, if anyone's out there » Yeah. you're out there and she's she's » Yeah. you're out there and she's she's » Yeah. you're out there and she's she's got ideas. got ideas. got ideas. » I'm available. » I'm available. » I'm available. » The the other part about that industry » The the other part about that industry » The the other part about that industry that's weird that um we all saw uh in that's weird that um we all saw uh in that's weird that um we all saw uh in New York City is like how layered it all New York City is like how layered it all New York City is like how layered it all is and how much it is kind of who you is and how much it is kind of who you is and how much it is kind of who you know. know. know. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » In the game industry cuz there's » In the game industry cuz there's » In the game industry cuz there's consolidators, there's like agents that consolidators, there's like agents that consolidators, there's like agents that represent you. represent you. represent you. » Uh brokers that go find deals or there's » Uh brokers that go find deals or there's » Uh brokers that go find deals or there's Walmart brokers. They were walking up Walmart brokers. They were walking up Walmart brokers. They were walking up people that find merchandise for people that find merchandise for people that find merchandise for Walmart, but they weren't like employed Walmart, but they weren't like employed Walmart, but they weren't like employed by Walmart. by Walmart. by Walmart. » Yeah. No, you pay them to get you into » Yeah. No, you pay them to get you into » Yeah. No, you pay them to get you into Walmart, Walmart, Walmart, » right? » right? » right? » So, and then there's like there's so » So, and then there's like there's so » So, and then there's like there's so many layers to that and figuring out, many layers to that and figuring out, many layers to that and figuring out, well, what do we really need to what well, what do we really need to what well, what do we really need to what should we spend our money on? What's should we spend our money on? What's should we spend our money on? What's going to help us the best? And that's going to help us the best? And that's going to help us the best? And that's something we're kind of like that's what something we're kind of like that's what something we're kind of like that's what we're figuring out right now, like we're figuring out right now, like we're figuring out right now, like » where do we put our time and our money » where do we put our time and our money » where do we put our time and our money that's going to propel this that's going to propel this that's going to propel this » the furthest? » the furthest? » the furthest? » Yeah. Is it with a partnership with » Yeah. Is it with a partnership with » Yeah. Is it with a partnership with someone that can just take it and run someone that can just take it and run someone that can just take it and run for you or is it for you or is it for you or is it » Yeah, just marketing and getting busier » Yeah, just marketing and getting busier » Yeah, just marketing and getting busier yourself. Um, yeah. And you probably yourself. Um, yeah. And you probably yourself. Um, yeah. And you probably have to have enough traction for those have to have enough traction for those have to have enough traction for those bigger guys to take you serious, which bigger guys to take you serious, which bigger guys to take you serious, which is probably why move quicker, is probably why move quicker, is probably why move quicker, » right? » right? » right? » Is a good philosophy. » Is a good philosophy. » Is a good philosophy. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Um, and I think too, thinking about like » Um, and I think too, thinking about like » Um, and I think too, thinking about like when we were talking about like um when we were talking about like um when we were talking about like um compliments of the game and stuff, one compliments of the game and stuff, one compliments of the game and stuff, one thing that I thought was so cool in New thing that I thought was so cool in New thing that I thought was so cool in New York is I had a lot of game inventors York is I had a lot of game inventors York is I had a lot of game inventors come by the booth. come by the booth. come by the booth. » Oh yeah. and just think it was really » Oh yeah. and just think it was really » Oh yeah. and just think it was really cool. And that to me made me feel like cool. And that to me made me feel like cool. And that to me made me feel like so official cuz I'm like so official cuz I'm like so official cuz I'm like » there were what's the other one » there were what's the other one » there were what's the other one starts with an H? The big starts with an H? The big starts with an H? The big » Hasbro. » Hasbro. » Hasbro. » They uh there was a couple people that » They uh there was a couple people that » They uh there was a couple people that came by and they were just called came by and they were just called came by and they were just called inventors. So at that toy fair, right, inventors. So at that toy fair, right, inventors. So at that toy fair, right, they had badges that said they had badges that said they had badges that said » said inventor. » said inventor. » said inventor. » Inventor. And they just invent games and » Inventor. And they just invent games and » Inventor. And they just invent games and then go to the big guys and the big guys then go to the big guys and the big guys then go to the big guys and the big guys » take it. » take it. » take it. » Yeah. And it was really cool to have » Yeah. And it was really cool to have » Yeah. And it was really cool to have them stop by the booth because they them stop by the booth because they them stop by the booth because they weren't necessarily offering any weren't necessarily offering any weren't necessarily offering any service. They just saw it and they're service. They just saw it and they're service. They just saw it and they're like, "This looks cool. Tell me about like, "This looks cool. Tell me about like, "This looks cool. Tell me about it." And then they're like, "This is it." And then they're like, "This is it." And then they're like, "This is great." And so that to me was like great." And so that to me was like great." And so that to me was like » as a fellow Winventure. » as a fellow Winventure. » as a fellow Winventure. » Exactly. And I thought that was kind of » Exactly. And I thought that was kind of » Exactly. And I thought that was kind of a cool realization for you that a cool realization for you that a cool realization for you that does exist at that convention, right? does exist at that convention, right? does exist at that convention, right? Like there's people that just in Bang Like there's people that just in Bang Like there's people that just in Bang Games, you're like, "Oh, that does it's Games, you're like, "Oh, that does it's Games, you're like, "Oh, that does it's my dream job. It does exist." my dream job. It does exist." my dream job. It does exist." » There really are people doing that. » There really are people doing that. » There really are people doing that. » Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. Cool. Well, » Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. Cool. Well, » Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. Cool. Well, good job. We love the game. Um, we I I good job. We love the game. Um, we I I good job. We love the game. Um, we I I would say at the very least there isn't would say at the very least there isn't would say at the very least there isn't a month that goes by we haven't played a month that goes by we haven't played a month that goes by we haven't played dueling llamas in our house. Um, and dueling llamas in our house. Um, and dueling llamas in our house. Um, and that's always led by our kids, which is that's always led by our kids, which is that's always led by our kids, which is cool. Even our middle schooler. cool. Even our middle schooler. cool. Even our middle schooler. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » That's like, can we play dueling llamas » That's like, can we play dueling llamas » That's like, can we play dueling llamas tonight? You know, and it's not a tonight? You know, and it's not a tonight? You know, and it's not a game like you said earlier like sorry or game like you said earlier like sorry or game like you said earlier like sorry or Uno that I just do not want to play Uno that I just do not want to play Uno that I just do not want to play again. again. again. » Not one more time, please. I'm like, » Not one more time, please. I'm like, » Not one more time, please. I'm like, "Oh, no. I'll play that game and I'm "Oh, no. I'll play that game and I'm "Oh, no. I'll play that game and I'm going to be competitive and I hope I going to be competitive and I hope I going to be competitive and I hope I beat him cuz they could they could still beat him cuz they could they could still beat him cuz they could they could still beat me and that drives me nuts." beat me and that drives me nuts." beat me and that drives me nuts." » Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes our um 5-year-old » Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes our um 5-year-old » Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes our um 5-year-old is winning the game. I'm like, "How did is winning the game. I'm like, "How did is winning the game. I'm like, "How did you do that?" you do that?" you do that?" » Yeah. And and I will say like the more » Yeah. And and I will say like the more » Yeah. And and I will say like the more they're around it, a younger kid, like they're around it, a younger kid, like they're around it, a younger kid, like if they can add money, right? If they if they can add money, right? If they if they can add money, right? If they can add ones, two can add ones, two can add ones, two » or just with a little help. I'm usually » or just with a little help. I'm usually » or just with a little help. I'm usually helping the 5-year-old a little bit helping the 5-year-old a little bit helping the 5-year-old a little bit » cash side of it, » cash side of it, » cash side of it, » but she knows all the llamas » but she knows all the llamas » but she knows all the llamas » and knows what they do. Yeah. » and knows what they do. Yeah. » and knows what they do. Yeah. » And so she can pretty much play on her » And so she can pretty much play on her » And so she can pretty much play on her own. But yeah, own. But yeah, own. But yeah, » it's awesome. Well, good job. Appreciate » it's awesome. Well, good job. Appreciate » it's awesome. Well, good job. Appreciate you. Thanks for doing this. You did you. Thanks for doing this. You did you. Thanks for doing this. You did great. You nailed it. Thanks for coming great. You nailed it. Thanks for coming great. You nailed it. Thanks for coming on. ---