Margin, Design, and Building Pet Products That Actually Win with Trevor Crotts | Ep 59

What what would be your first advice on What what would be your first advice on uh margin for a product like that if I uh margin for a product like that if I uh margin for a product like that if I wanted to go direct e-commerce? I'm not wanted to go direct e-commerce? I'm not wanted to go direct e-commerce? I'm not talking wholesale and then I'd like your talking wholesale and then I'd like your talking wholesale and then I'd like your blend in of wholesale perspective. blend in of wholesale perspective. blend in of wholesale perspective. » Sure. Yeah. Going back to the whole, you » Sure. Yeah. Going back to the whole, you » Sure. Yeah. Going back to the whole, you know, climbing the mountain like we help know, climbing the mountain like we help know, climbing the mountain like we help people climb the mountain and they want people climb the mountain and they want people climb the mountain and they want up the mountain, but we say, "Hey, we up the mountain, but we say, "Hey, we up the mountain, but we say, "Hey, we got to make sure we have the right got to make sure we have the right got to make sure we have the right attributes. Got to make sure you have an attributes. Got to make sure you have an attributes. Got to make sure you have an ice ax. You got to make sure you have, ice ax. You got to make sure you have, ice ax. You got to make sure you have, you know, winter clothing. Got to have you know, winter clothing. Got to have you know, winter clothing. Got to have the rope." Um, and I would say the rope." Um, and I would say the rope." Um, and I would say the number one KPI that I think is the number one KPI that I think is the number one KPI that I think is the most important uh predictor of success most important uh predictor of success most important uh predictor of success is the Killer Growth podcast starts now. is the Killer Growth podcast starts now. is the Killer Growth podcast starts now. What's up guys? Sam McVey here with the What's up guys? Sam McVey here with the Killer Growth podcast and today I have Killer Growth podcast and today I have Killer Growth podcast and today I have Trevor Crotz, the founder of Buddy Rest Trevor Crotz, the founder of Buddy Rest Trevor Crotz, the founder of Buddy Rest and American Pet Works. and American Pet Works. and American Pet Works. » Amen. It's great to be here with you. » Amen. It's great to be here with you. » Amen. It's great to be here with you. » Amen. Let's go. Uh Trevor, I've always » Amen. Let's go. Uh Trevor, I've always » Amen. Let's go. Uh Trevor, I've always loved your story uh because it goes back loved your story uh because it goes back loved your story uh because it goes back to uh a thing I'm aware of and I know to uh a thing I'm aware of and I know to uh a thing I'm aware of and I know well, mattress sales. well, mattress sales. well, mattress sales. » Yeah. uh because I had a mattress store » Yeah. uh because I had a mattress store » Yeah. uh because I had a mattress store for about seven years and uh not to for about seven years and uh not to for about seven years and uh not to the level of what you were doing in the level of what you were doing in the level of what you were doing in mattresses. We've sold a lot of things. mattresses. We've sold a lot of things. mattresses. We've sold a lot of things. Um but I'd love to start there just Um but I'd love to start there just Um but I'd love to start there just Trevor was slinging mattresses and then Trevor was slinging mattresses and then Trevor was slinging mattresses and then he became an entrepreneur. he became an entrepreneur. he became an entrepreneur. » Yeah. My story starts probably about 15 » Yeah. My story starts probably about 15 » Yeah. My story starts probably about 15 years ago. Um I was working in a years ago. Um I was working in a years ago. Um I was working in a mattress. mattress. mattress. » You're only 15 years old. » You're only 15 years old. » You're only 15 years old. » Well, my story started before that. But » Well, my story started before that. But » Well, my story started before that. But the only interesting the only interesting the only interesting the interesting part for context starts interesting part for context starts interesting part for context starts about 15 years ago. you know, I was uh about 15 years ago. you know, I was uh about 15 years ago. you know, I was uh selling mattresses, but I was mostly a selling mattresses, but I was mostly a selling mattresses, but I was mostly a corporate trainer. So, I was teaching corporate trainer. So, I was teaching corporate trainer. So, I was teaching people how to sell. And that's something people how to sell. And that's something people how to sell. And that's something I realized early on that um you know, I realized early on that um you know, I realized early on that um you know, I've been pretty good at sales, but I I've been pretty good at sales, but I I've been pretty good at sales, but I actually got more fulfillment from actually got more fulfillment from actually got more fulfillment from teaching people and helping people. And teaching people and helping people. And teaching people and helping people. And um you know, flash forward, that's kind um you know, flash forward, that's kind um you know, flash forward, that's kind of come full circle for me. But about 15 of come full circle for me. But about 15 of come full circle for me. But about 15 years ago, I was in the mattress years ago, I was in the mattress years ago, I was in the mattress industry and I saw an opportunity to industry and I saw an opportunity to industry and I saw an opportunity to take the science of sleep and cross it take the science of sleep and cross it take the science of sleep and cross it over into pets. Um, you know, at the over into pets. Um, you know, at the over into pets. Um, you know, at the time I had a a pretty big dog and I time I had a a pretty big dog and I time I had a a pretty big dog and I learned that big dogs are destined to learned that big dogs are destined to learned that big dogs are destined to kind of live a much shorter life than kind of live a much shorter life than kind of live a much shorter life than their smaller counterparts. And looking their smaller counterparts. And looking their smaller counterparts. And looking at the reasons why, uh, a lot of it has at the reasons why, uh, a lot of it has at the reasons why, uh, a lot of it has to do with joint problems and pain and, to do with joint problems and pain and, to do with joint problems and pain and, you know, quality of life issues. And so you know, quality of life issues. And so you know, quality of life issues. And so I saw an opportunity to help dogs and I saw an opportunity to help dogs and I saw an opportunity to help dogs and build a business and I took the science build a business and I took the science build a business and I took the science of sleep and I crossed it over into pets of sleep and I crossed it over into pets of sleep and I crossed it over into pets and created a company called Buddy Rest, and created a company called Buddy Rest, and created a company called Buddy Rest, which is uh, I still have today. It's an which is uh, I still have today. It's an which is uh, I still have today. It's an animal wellness company. And we started animal wellness company. And we started animal wellness company. And we started off with uh dog beds. And so um that's off with uh dog beds. And so um that's off with uh dog beds. And so um that's really kind of what punched our ticket really kind of what punched our ticket really kind of what punched our ticket to the dance was uh beds that were to the dance was uh beds that were to the dance was uh beds that were closer to what a human bed was than to closer to what a human bed was than to closer to what a human bed was than to what dog beds were at the time. So what dog beds were at the time. So what dog beds were at the time. So pressure relieving memory foam uh pressure relieving memory foam uh pressure relieving memory foam uh tactile pressure mapped making sure that tactile pressure mapped making sure that tactile pressure mapped making sure that you know pressure was relieved and you know pressure was relieved and you know pressure was relieved and allowing nutrient rich blood flow back allowing nutrient rich blood flow back allowing nutrient rich blood flow back into dogs that have ailments. And so it into dogs that have ailments. And so it into dogs that have ailments. And so it was really great. helps dogs with um was really great. helps dogs with um was really great. helps dogs with um recovering from surgery, dogs that have recovering from surgery, dogs that have recovering from surgery, dogs that have canine arthritis, which you know, come canine arthritis, which you know, come canine arthritis, which you know, come to find out, most dogs, if they live to find out, most dogs, if they live to find out, most dogs, if they live long enough, will suffer from canine long enough, will suffer from canine long enough, will suffer from canine arthritis and painful joint problems. arthritis and painful joint problems. arthritis and painful joint problems. So, that's kind of where we got our So, that's kind of where we got our So, that's kind of where we got our start. Um and uh yeah, we were off to start. Um and uh yeah, we were off to start. Um and uh yeah, we were off to the races from there. the races from there. the races from there. » So, let's break that down, right? So, » So, let's break that down, right? So, » So, let's break that down, right? So, you're selling temp, you're training you're selling temp, you're training you're selling temp, you're training people on selling them, you sold them people on selling them, you sold them people on selling them, you sold them and tempropedic, what sort of simmons, and tempropedic, what sort of simmons, and tempropedic, what sort of simmons, whatever you were selling at the time. whatever you were selling at the time. whatever you were selling at the time. » But what was that moment? you're just » But what was that moment? you're just » But what was that moment? you're just like, I'm going to go take one of these like, I'm going to go take one of these like, I'm going to go take one of these beds and cut it up and reshape it into a beds and cut it up and reshape it into a beds and cut it up and reshape it into a dog bed. Like, how did you make the dog bed. Like, how did you make the dog bed. Like, how did you make the first » Well, I mean, so I had my first kind of » Well, I mean, so I had my first kind of » Well, I mean, so I had my first kind of endeavor into entrepreneurship. Uh, I endeavor into entrepreneurship. Uh, I endeavor into entrepreneurship. Uh, I was running an eBay store uh a couple was running an eBay store uh a couple was running an eBay store uh a couple years earlier years earlier years earlier » and uh you know, had some good success » and uh you know, had some good success » and uh you know, had some good success with that. It it really was a great with that. It it really was a great with that. It it really was a great place to kind of cut your teeth selling place to kind of cut your teeth selling place to kind of cut your teeth selling things online. You got to learn how to things online. You got to learn how to things online. You got to learn how to do listings and customer service and do listings and customer service and do listings and customer service and fulfillment and dealing with reviews and fulfillment and dealing with reviews and fulfillment and dealing with reviews and dealing with returns. So eBay was like a dealing with returns. So eBay was like a dealing with returns. So eBay was like a great place to start. Um, and you know, great place to start. Um, and you know, great place to start. Um, and you know, I had a pretty good run and I found I had a pretty good run and I found I had a pretty good run and I found myself like I was even on the front page myself like I was even on the front page myself like I was even on the front page of the uh the business section for the of the uh the business section for the of the uh the business section for the paper holding a sheet of uncut money and paper holding a sheet of uncut money and paper holding a sheet of uncut money and I remember thinking, "Oh, I've seen I remember thinking, "Oh, I've seen I remember thinking, "Oh, I've seen that." that." that." » I remember thinking I was uh, you know, » I remember thinking I was uh, you know, » I remember thinking I was uh, you know, I was pretty hot stuff at the time. I was pretty hot stuff at the time. I was pretty hot stuff at the time. » What were you selling on eBay? » What were you selling on eBay? » What were you selling on eBay? » I was doing business liquidation. So I » I was doing business liquidation. So I » I was doing business liquidation. So I was doing like for school districts, we was doing like for school districts, we was doing like for school districts, we were selling um excess computers and were selling um excess computers and were selling um excess computers and that kind of thing. uh businesses that kind of thing. uh businesses that kind of thing. uh businesses that were closing down, we would go and piece were closing down, we would go and piece were closing down, we would go and piece them out, sell them out versus sending them out, sell them out versus sending them out, sell them out versus sending them to auction uh locally. You could them to auction uh locally. You could them to auction uh locally. You could get a little bit more money by, you get a little bit more money by, you get a little bit more money by, you know, spreading it out across know, spreading it out across know, spreading it out across the nation for people who were looking the nation for people who were looking the nation for people who were looking for that type of product. Um but, you for that type of product. Um but, you for that type of product. Um but, you know, I ended up uh I don't know, I know, I ended up uh I don't know, I know, I ended up uh I don't know, I don't like the word fail because I I don't like the word fail because I I don't like the word fail because I I learned a lot from it, but I ended up learned a lot from it, but I ended up learned a lot from it, but I ended up closing that business. There was a bunch closing that business. There was a bunch closing that business. There was a bunch of extenduating circumstances and uh you of extenduating circumstances and uh you of extenduating circumstances and uh you know, we we made some good money for a know, we we made some good money for a know, we we made some good money for a little bit, but at the end of the day, I little bit, but at the end of the day, I little bit, but at the end of the day, I felt like I failed. I felt like a felt like I failed. I felt like a felt like I failed. I felt like a failure. And so I found myself, you failure. And so I found myself, you failure. And so I found myself, you know, bouncing around and about two know, bouncing around and about two know, bouncing around and about two years later, this is like in my late uh years later, this is like in my late uh years later, this is like in my late uh mid to late 20s, I found myself at the mid to late 20s, I found myself at the mid to late 20s, I found myself at the mattress company, right? And uh it never mattress company, right? And uh it never mattress company, right? And uh it never quel it never quite sat with me well quel it never quite sat with me well quel it never quite sat with me well that this is what my life was destined that this is what my life was destined that this is what my life was destined to be, right? I always thought there was to be, right? I always thought there was to be, right? I always thought there was something more. You know, I know that a something more. You know, I know that a something more. You know, I know that a lot of people had told me that, you lot of people had told me that, you lot of people had told me that, you know, I had so much potential that I know, I had so much potential that I know, I had so much potential that I wasn't using. And I knew it inside my wasn't using. And I knew it inside my wasn't using. And I knew it inside my heart that I was not using my potential heart that I was not using my potential heart that I was not using my potential to the fullest. And I expected something to the fullest. And I expected something to the fullest. And I expected something more for myself. And I remember even at more for myself. And I remember even at more for myself. And I remember even at the time, you know, I started it, my the time, you know, I started it, my the time, you know, I started it, my boss uh at the mattress company, uh he boss uh at the mattress company, uh he boss uh at the mattress company, uh he he told me that this might be a nice he told me that this might be a nice he told me that this might be a nice side business for me, but uh you know, side business for me, but uh you know, side business for me, but uh you know, he thought he thought that he was kind he thought he thought that he was kind he thought he thought that he was kind of offended because he thought that I of offended because he thought that I of offended because he thought that I thought I was too good for the job. And thought I was too good for the job. And thought I was too good for the job. And the reality is I did. I thought I was the reality is I did. I thought I was the reality is I did. I thought I was destined to do something more than just destined to do something more than just destined to do something more than just to train people how to sell mattresses to train people how to sell mattresses to train people how to sell mattresses and to deal with the general public and to deal with the general public and to deal with the general public selling mattresses. There's nothing selling mattresses. There's nothing selling mattresses. There's nothing wrong with that. It's a great It's a wrong with that. It's a great It's a wrong with that. It's a great It's a great business. great living, great business. great living, great business. great living, great people, but I wanted to to make people, but I wanted to to make people, but I wanted to to make something with impact, something more. something with impact, something more. something with impact, something more. And so, uh, you know, when the And so, uh, you know, when the And so, uh, you know, when the opportunity came by and I came up with opportunity came by and I came up with opportunity came by and I came up with the idea for Buddy Rest, it just seemed the idea for Buddy Rest, it just seemed the idea for Buddy Rest, it just seemed like a natural vehicle. And if you ever like a natural vehicle. And if you ever like a natural vehicle. And if you ever work in retail, you've got a lot of work in retail, you've got a lot of work in retail, you've got a lot of downtime on your hands, right? And so, downtime on your hands, right? And so, downtime on your hands, right? And so, you can either use that to watch Netflix you can either use that to watch Netflix you can either use that to watch Netflix and look at cat videos, or you can build and look at cat videos, or you can build and look at cat videos, or you can build something for yourself and, you something for yourself and, you something for yourself and, you know, pull yourself up by your know, pull yourself up by your know, pull yourself up by your bootstraps, build something special. And bootstraps, build something special. And bootstraps, build something special. And that's kind of what we did. that's kind of what we did. that's kind of what we did. » Yeah. So talk about the first iteration » Yeah. So talk about the first iteration » Yeah. So talk about the first iteration uh how do you build a dog bed? uh how do you build a dog bed? uh how do you build a dog bed? » Well, so you know we completely were » Well, so you know we completely were » Well, so you know we completely were looking at like tempropedic science at looking at like tempropedic science at looking at like tempropedic science at the time. In fact uh the first the first the time. In fact uh the first the first the time. In fact uh the first the first idea I remember I got a cease and desist idea I remember I got a cease and desist idea I remember I got a cease and desist letter from tempropedic. They said we letter from tempropedic. They said we letter from tempropedic. They said we could not use I I registered a domain could not use I I registered a domain could not use I I registered a domain name called temporetic and they were name called temporetic and they were name called temporetic and they were like nope. And so uh come to find out uh like nope. And so uh come to find out uh like nope. And so uh come to find out uh we had to pivot from that a little bit. we had to pivot from that a little bit. we had to pivot from that a little bit. But you know ultimately we thought we But you know ultimately we thought we But you know ultimately we thought we just need to find I knew where I could just need to find I knew where I could just need to find I knew where I could buy the foam. So, I found a place to buy the foam. So, I found a place to buy the foam. So, I found a place to buy the foam and I needed somebody that the foam and I needed somebody that the foam and I needed somebody that could sew it. And so, I found a local could sew it. And so, I found a local could sew it. And so, I found a local upholstery shop that could sew it. And upholstery shop that could sew it. And upholstery shop that could sew it. And that's what that's actually where we got that's what that's actually where we got that's what that's actually where we got started. We started with one bed, one started. We started with one bed, one started. We started with one bed, one size. We went to u Wolftock out in size. We went to u Wolftock out in size. We went to u Wolftock out in Sedick County Park. This is in 2012, I Sedick County Park. This is in 2012, I Sedick County Park. This is in 2012, I believe. Wow. believe. Wow. believe. Wow. » So, it's quite some time ago. And it was » So, it's quite some time ago. And it was » So, it's quite some time ago. And it was a mess. I mean, we had we had a couple a mess. I mean, we had we had a couple a mess. I mean, we had we had a couple products. Uh we didn't have any like products. Uh we didn't have any like products. Uh we didn't have any like stock to sell. Um, and I had a banner stock to sell. Um, and I had a banner stock to sell. Um, and I had a banner behind us that we just got printed with behind us that we just got printed with behind us that we just got printed with our website and the I hired some like our website and the I hired some like our website and the I hired some like freelance web developer from overseas freelance web developer from overseas freelance web developer from overseas and they would promise me the website and they would promise me the website and they would promise me the website would be ready. Wasn't ready. So, we're would be ready. Wasn't ready. So, we're would be ready. Wasn't ready. So, we're sitting Yeah. So, we're sitting here sitting Yeah. So, we're sitting here sitting Yeah. So, we're sitting here like selling these or not selling these like selling these or not selling these like selling these or not selling these products. We don't even have any products. We don't even have any products. We don't even have any products to sell, but talking to people products to sell, but talking to people products to sell, but talking to people about these products, the website that about these products, the website that about these products, the website that doesn't work behind us with no products doesn't work behind us with no products doesn't work behind us with no products to sell and they're expensive. I mean, a to sell and they're expensive. I mean, a to sell and they're expensive. I mean, a lot of people uh told us it was never lot of people uh told us it was never lot of people uh told us it was never going to work because, you know, there going to work because, you know, there going to work because, you know, there were too much and people weren't going were too much and people weren't going were too much and people weren't going to spend a lot of money on a dog bed. to spend a lot of money on a dog bed. to spend a lot of money on a dog bed. But I wanted to change what people But I wanted to change what people But I wanted to change what people thought about what a dog bed actually thought about what a dog bed actually thought about what a dog bed actually was. You know, it's not just something, was. You know, it's not just something, was. You know, it's not just something, you know, for them to lay on. It's some you know, for them to lay on. It's some you know, for them to lay on. It's some it's a piece of uh it's a wellness it's a piece of uh it's a wellness it's a piece of uh it's a wellness product for their lifestyle and support product for their lifestyle and support product for their lifestyle and support their body. Um and so here we are, you their body. Um and so here we are, you their body. Um and so here we are, you know, uh complete total mess at Cedric know, uh complete total mess at Cedric know, uh complete total mess at Cedric County Park launching the product and we County Park launching the product and we County Park launching the product and we didn't make any sales and no, we didn't make any sales and no, we didn't make any sales and no, we couldn't and no one got on our website couldn't and no one got on our website couldn't and no one got on our website because they couldn't. But what we did because they couldn't. But what we did because they couldn't. But what we did get is we got [clears throat] a lot of get is we got [clears throat] a lot of get is we got [clears throat] a lot of like a lot of great conversations with like a lot of great conversations with like a lot of great conversations with dog people. A lot of a lot of people dog people. A lot of a lot of people dog people. A lot of a lot of people that really liked the product, wanted to that really liked the product, wanted to that really liked the product, wanted to know more, asked, you know, gave us a know more, asked, you know, gave us a know more, asked, you know, gave us a lot of buying signals. How much is it? lot of buying signals. How much is it? lot of buying signals. How much is it? Where can I buy it? When is it going to Where can I buy it? When is it going to Where can I buy it? When is it going to be available? And that is actually the be available? And that is actually the be available? And that is actually the validation that we needed to kind of validation that we needed to kind of validation that we needed to kind of take it to the next level. And so, you take it to the next level. And so, you take it to the next level. And so, you know, a week went by, we got our website know, a week went by, we got our website know, a week went by, we got our website fixed. Uh, a couple weeks went by, we fixed. Uh, a couple weeks went by, we fixed. Uh, a couple weeks went by, we went and got we had a few, you know, went and got we had a few, you know, went and got we had a few, you know, pieces of stock. And then I remember uh pieces of stock. And then I remember uh pieces of stock. And then I remember uh that then it happened. We got somebody that then it happened. We got somebody that then it happened. We got somebody went online and bought one of our dog went online and bought one of our dog went online and bought one of our dog beds and uh yeah, I still I still beds and uh yeah, I still I still beds and uh yeah, I still I still remember them to their to this day. It remember them to their to this day. It remember them to their to this day. It was a it was a it was a really big was a it was a it was a really big was a it was a it was a really big moment for us. moment for us. moment for us. » Local were they not local? No. Um Ann » Local were they not local? No. Um Ann » Local were they not local? No. Um Ann Gman, whoever you are, wherever you are. Gman, whoever you are, wherever you are. Gman, whoever you are, wherever you are. Appreciate you. Appreciate you. Appreciate you. » You still remember? » You still remember? » You still remember? » I still remember. First customer of all » I still remember. First customer of all » I still remember. First customer of all time. Yeah. Ann Gman. God bless her. time. Yeah. Ann Gman. God bless her. time. Yeah. Ann Gman. God bless her. » That's awesome. » That's awesome. » That's awesome. » So then you go into production. And so » So then you go into production. And so » So then you go into production. And so talk about the ramp up because uh from talk about the ramp up because uh from talk about the ramp up because uh from experience of taking an idea I love that experience of taking an idea I love that experience of taking an idea I love that you did you did market research you did you did market research you did you did market research essentially was your first exposure of essentially was your first exposure of essentially was your first exposure of I'm just going to get in a place where I'm just going to get in a place where I'm just going to get in a place where people think we're people think we're people think we're » yeah we weren't trying to do that but » yeah we weren't trying to do that but » yeah we weren't trying to do that but yeah that's where yeah that's where yeah that's where » that's what happened. Uh but go into now » that's what happened. Uh but go into now » that's what happened. Uh but go into now they sell uh you start manufacturing. they sell uh you start manufacturing. they sell uh you start manufacturing. Did you guys make all the beds in house? Did you guys make all the beds in house? Did you guys make all the beds in house? » No. So the first maybe uh two years or » No. So the first maybe uh two years or » No. So the first maybe uh two years or maybe year and a half, two years, we maybe year and a half, two years, we maybe year and a half, two years, we started um you know, we were using an started um you know, we were using an started um you know, we were using an upholstery company. We were kind of just upholstery company. We were kind of just upholstery company. We were kind of just assembling and uh you know, we were off assembling and uh you know, we were off assembling and uh you know, we were off to the races like right off the bat. So to the races like right off the bat. So to the races like right off the bat. So we were selling a lot of product. Um we we were selling a lot of product. Um we we were selling a lot of product. Um we got into got into got into um a big trade show and that trade show um a big trade show and that trade show um a big trade show and that trade show is called Global Pet Expo. I still is called Global Pet Expo. I still is called Global Pet Expo. I still attend it to this day. Um and it was a attend it to this day. Um and it was a attend it to this day. Um and it was a big opportunity for us. In the first 20 big opportunity for us. In the first 20 big opportunity for us. In the first 20 minutes, we had Target, Petco, and minutes, we had Target, Petco, and minutes, we had Target, Petco, and Walmart in our booth. and we were kind Walmart in our booth. and we were kind Walmart in our booth. and we were kind of the bell of the ball. There was of the bell of the ball. There was of the bell of the ball. There was nobody that had any of the products like nobody that had any of the products like nobody that had any of the products like us. And uh yeah, we were off to the us. And uh yeah, we were off to the us. And uh yeah, we were off to the races. And so our upholstery company races. And so our upholstery company races. And so our upholstery company couldn't really keep up. So we thought, couldn't really keep up. So we thought, couldn't really keep up. So we thought, hey, you know what? This is this seems hey, you know what? This is this seems hey, you know what? This is this seems pretty easy. All we need to do is is get pretty easy. All we need to do is is get pretty easy. All we need to do is is get some sewing machines and you know, we some sewing machines and you know, we some sewing machines and you know, we have somebody that can sew it and have somebody that can sew it and have somebody that can sew it and somebody that can put it together and we somebody that can put it together and we somebody that can put it together and we can pack it up and ship it out. And can pack it up and ship it out. And can pack it up and ship it out. And that's how we started manufacturing. And that's how we started manufacturing. And that's how we started manufacturing. And uh you know, that was a a very painful uh you know, that was a a very painful uh you know, that was a a very painful lesson. It was a wrong assumption. You lesson. It was a wrong assumption. You lesson. It was a wrong assumption. You know, it wasn't that easy. and know, it wasn't that easy. and know, it wasn't that easy. and manufacturing is incredibly hard. Uh and manufacturing is incredibly hard. Uh and manufacturing is incredibly hard. Uh and there's all sorts of things that you there's all sorts of things that you there's all sorts of things that you can't account for or don't account for. can't account for or don't account for. can't account for or don't account for. You don't know you don't know. And so we You don't know you don't know. And so we You don't know you don't know. And so we uh we did hire a seamstress, we got a uh we did hire a seamstress, we got a uh we did hire a seamstress, we got a sewing machine, and we started building sewing machine, and we started building sewing machine, and we started building it all inhouse. Um and we pretty much it all inhouse. Um and we pretty much it all inhouse. Um and we pretty much made every mistake that you could make made every mistake that you could make made every mistake that you could make along the way. Uh and but you along the way. Uh and but you along the way. Uh and but you know, we we kind of made it through. And know, we we kind of made it through. And know, we we kind of made it through. And uh in that first two years, we had a uh in that first two years, we had a uh in that first two years, we had a great product. Um we learned a lot of great product. Um we learned a lot of great product. Um we learned a lot of lessons. uh because you know even though lessons. uh because you know even though lessons. uh because you know even though we had a great product we didn't have we had a great product we didn't have we had a great product we didn't have what I would say a great product what I would say a great product what I would say a great product business and what I mean by that is so business and what I mean by that is so business and what I mean by that is so for the first uh first couple years you for the first uh first couple years you for the first uh first couple years you know we were on national shopping know we were on national shopping know we were on national shopping television we were in Sky Mall catalog television we were in Sky Mall catalog television we were in Sky Mall catalog we were in front gate we were doing the we were in front gate we were doing the we were in front gate we were doing the thing but uh that was all great when we thing but uh that was all great when we thing but uh that was all great when we didn't have any competition and about didn't have any competition and about didn't have any competition and about year three every mattress company that year three every mattress company that year three every mattress company that you could think of came out with a dog you could think of came out with a dog you could think of came out with a dog bed I'm talking about Purple Dog Bed bed I'm talking about Purple Dog Bed bed I'm talking about Purple Dog Bed Casper Tempropedic Beauty Rest every Casper Tempropedic Beauty Rest every Casper Tempropedic Beauty Rest every single one of them took the single one of them took the single one of them took the science of sleep and crossed it over science of sleep and crossed it over science of sleep and crossed it over into pets kind of like what we were into pets kind of like what we were into pets kind of like what we were doing and we got squeezed. And so um you doing and we got squeezed. And so um you doing and we got squeezed. And so um you know one of the lessons that I know one of the lessons that I know one of the lessons that I really learned from that is that uh you really learned from that is that uh you really learned from that is that uh you know you have to build it the right way know you have to build it the right way know you have to build it the right way with the right margin profile in order with the right margin profile in order with the right margin profile in order to be competitive. You have to build the to be competitive. You have to build the to be competitive. You have to build the product to have the right kind of product to have the right kind of product to have the right kind of championship DNA in order to be championship DNA in order to be championship DNA in order to be successful down the road. Uh and that successful down the road. Uh and that successful down the road. Uh and that was a painful lesson. So um had a lot of was a painful lesson. So um had a lot of was a painful lesson. So um had a lot of sleepless nights back then I bet. We we sleepless nights back then I bet. We we sleepless nights back then I bet. We we pivoted, we worked our way through it pivoted, we worked our way through it pivoted, we worked our way through it and we kept going. and we kept going. and we kept going. » Yeah. So, talk about uh diversification. » Yeah. So, talk about uh diversification. » Yeah. So, talk about uh diversification. You started getting into other pet You started getting into other pet You started getting into other pet products, selling beds. Uh how did you products, selling beds. Uh how did you products, selling beds. Uh how did you get into other pet products? And was get into other pet products? And was get into other pet products? And was that under Buddy Rest at the beginning that under Buddy Rest at the beginning that under Buddy Rest at the beginning or was it American Pet Works? or was it American Pet Works? or was it American Pet Works? » Yeah. So, um yeah, we've done a lot of » Yeah. So, um yeah, we've done a lot of » Yeah. So, um yeah, we've done a lot of different stuff over the last uh 15 different stuff over the last uh 15 different stuff over the last uh 15 years. Uh the original Buddy Rest, we years. Uh the original Buddy Rest, we years. Uh the original Buddy Rest, we kind of we expanded into a lot of kind of we expanded into a lot of kind of we expanded into a lot of different bed styles. And so um we were different bed styles. And so um we were different bed styles. And so um we were developing new types of beds, developing new types of beds, developing new types of beds, differentiz beds, like different size differentiz beds, like different size differentiz beds, like different size dog beds, but more like different dog beds, but more like different dog beds, but more like different silhouettes, couch style beds, flat silhouettes, couch style beds, flat silhouettes, couch style beds, flat beds, round beds, those types of things. beds, round beds, those types of things. beds, round beds, those types of things. So dog beds were our kind of our natural So dog beds were our kind of our natural So dog beds were our kind of our natural proclivity. proclivity. proclivity. » Did you ever do like the comfort thing? » Did you ever do like the comfort thing? » Did you ever do like the comfort thing? You know, like in the human being You know, like in the human being You know, like in the human being selling beds, you're kind of like trying selling beds, you're kind of like trying selling beds, you're kind of like trying to profile the bed to the person. to profile the bed to the person. to profile the bed to the person. » Was that ever? » Was that ever? » Was that ever? » Yeah, actually. So part of the reason I » Yeah, actually. So part of the reason I » Yeah, actually. So part of the reason I started this business uh was I got started this business uh was I got started this business uh was I got really frustrated with uh I worked for a really frustrated with uh I worked for a really frustrated with uh I worked for a big corporate company, right? And they big corporate company, right? And they big corporate company, right? And they had a way that they wanted corporate had a way that they wanted corporate had a way that they wanted corporate had a way they wanted us to corporate had a way they wanted us to corporate had a way they wanted us to sell and train which was based on sell and train which was based on sell and train which was based on comfort. Yeah. comfort. Yeah. comfort. Yeah. » And I had a real big challenge with that » And I had a real big challenge with that » And I had a real big challenge with that because how I always taught people how because how I always taught people how because how I always taught people how to sell beds is not how it feels 5 to sell beds is not how it feels 5 to sell beds is not how it feels 5 minutes when you're laying on it in a minutes when you're laying on it in a minutes when you're laying on it in a store, but how are you going to feel in store, but how are you going to feel in store, but how are you going to feel in the morning, right? So how do you sell the morning, right? So how do you sell the morning, right? So how do you sell the good night's sleep, not the good night's sleep, not the good night's sleep, not the mattress? And I was incredibly mattress? And I was incredibly mattress? And I was incredibly successful with that. And it was really successful with that. And it was really successful with that. And it was really frustrating that, you know, my boss frustrating that, you know, my boss frustrating that, you know, my boss would tell me, "Corporate's coming to would tell me, "Corporate's coming to would tell me, "Corporate's coming to town. You've got to change everything. town. You've got to change everything. town. You've got to change everything. Can't talk like this anymore. We got to Can't talk like this anymore. We got to Can't talk like this anymore. We got to focus on the comfort." And so I never, focus on the comfort." And so I never, focus on the comfort." And so I never, and comfort's important, but you can and comfort's important, but you can and comfort's important, but you can find comfort uh in a cheap bed. You can find comfort uh in a cheap bed. You can find comfort uh in a cheap bed. You can find comfort in an expensive bed. What's find comfort in an expensive bed. What's find comfort in an expensive bed. What's more important is how do you feel when more important is how do you feel when more important is how do you feel when you wake up in the morning? How do you wake up in the morning? How do you wake up in the morning? How do you feel when you have better mental acuity? feel when you have better mental acuity? feel when you have better mental acuity? You're ready to attack your day with You're ready to attack your day with You're ready to attack your day with enthusiasm. How do you feel after a good enthusiasm. How do you feel after a good enthusiasm. How do you feel after a good night's sleep? How do you accomplish night's sleep? How do you accomplish night's sleep? How do you accomplish that in a 30 minute interaction though that in a 30 minute interaction though that in a 30 minute interaction though at a mattress store? at a mattress store? at a mattress store? » Well, I probably took I probably made it » Well, I probably took I probably made it » Well, I probably took I probably made it a lot more than 30 minutes if they a lot more than 30 minutes if they a lot more than 30 minutes if they talked to me, but you know, I would take talked to me, but you know, I would take talked to me, but you know, I would take somebody that was wanting to spend maybe somebody that was wanting to spend maybe somebody that was wanting to spend maybe they had a budget in mind. How do you they had a budget in mind. How do you they had a budget in mind. How do you get somebody to spend, you know, that get somebody to spend, you know, that get somebody to spend, you know, that wants to spend $300 or $400 and they wants to spend $300 or $400 and they wants to spend $300 or $400 and they walk in the door and get them to to to walk in the door and get them to to to walk in the door and get them to to to do a $5,000 bed and it's not the do a $5,000 bed and it's not the do a $5,000 bed and it's not the comfort? It's not how it feels. And so, comfort? It's not how it feels. And so, comfort? It's not how it feels. And so, uh, kind of out of frustration with that uh, kind of out of frustration with that uh, kind of out of frustration with that entire process and, uh, I I I in some entire process and, uh, I I I in some entire process and, uh, I I I in some respects created a vehicle for my own respects created a vehicle for my own respects created a vehicle for my own sales philosophy. And so, how do you get sales philosophy. And so, how do you get sales philosophy. And so, how do you get somebody to buy a bed that's $150 for somebody to buy a bed that's $150 for somebody to buy a bed that's $150 for their dog, you know, and it's not their dog, you know, and it's not their dog, you know, and it's not comfort because a dog can find comfort because a dog can find comfort because a dog can find comfort in a lot of different things. You know, in a lot of different things. You know, in a lot of different things. You know, 50 years ago, they're sleeping on the 50 years ago, they're sleeping on the 50 years ago, they're sleeping on the floor, sleeping on hay in the barn. floor, sleeping on hay in the barn. floor, sleeping on hay in the barn. » Mine still does. I can't get that out. I » Mine still does. I can't get that out. I » Mine still does. I can't get that out. I know. We have to cut that out of this know. We have to cut that out of this know. We have to cut that out of this show. But, no, we have to get we have to show. But, no, we have to get we have to show. But, no, we have to get we have to get you hooked up with a with a better get you hooked up with a with a better get you hooked up with a with a better bed. But I mean, how do you get somebody bed. But I mean, how do you get somebody bed. But I mean, how do you get somebody to to make that purchase? And it's it's to to make that purchase? And it's it's to to make that purchase? And it's it's about an investment in their health and about an investment in their health and about an investment in their health and well-being. And that's the same science well-being. And that's the same science well-being. And that's the same science of sleep and the same kind of philosophy of sleep and the same kind of philosophy of sleep and the same kind of philosophy that I used in bed sales that I crossed that I used in bed sales that I crossed that I used in bed sales that I crossed over into pet sales. And so that's uh over into pet sales. And so that's uh over into pet sales. And so that's uh one of the real kind of um uh that's one of the real kind of um uh that's one of the real kind of um uh that's one of the real catalysts for creating of the real catalysts for creating of the real catalysts for creating » I like how you say a wellness like a pet » I like how you say a wellness like a pet » I like how you say a wellness like a pet wellness brand, not a pet bed brand. wellness brand, not a pet bed brand. wellness brand, not a pet bed brand. That's Yeah, that's comes from a That's Yeah, that's comes from a That's Yeah, that's comes from a different angle. From a marketing different angle. From a marketing different angle. From a marketing perspective, it sounds more thoughtful perspective, it sounds more thoughtful perspective, it sounds more thoughtful too, right? too, right? too, right? » Well, I mean, and it is about wellness » Well, I mean, and it is about wellness » Well, I mean, and it is about wellness for pets at the end of the day. Uh, a for pets at the end of the day. Uh, a for pets at the end of the day. Uh, a multimodal approach is what's needed. multimodal approach is what's needed. multimodal approach is what's needed. You know, uh, dogs have all sorts of You know, uh, dogs have all sorts of You know, uh, dogs have all sorts of issues, allergies, itching, pain, issues, allergies, itching, pain, issues, allergies, itching, pain, mobility, anxiety, and a dog bed isn't mobility, anxiety, and a dog bed isn't mobility, anxiety, and a dog bed isn't going to fix all that, but it can be a going to fix all that, but it can be a going to fix all that, but it can be a great part of the solution. It can give great part of the solution. It can give great part of the solution. It can give them a better support system. It can them a better support system. It can them a better support system. It can give them better joints. It can allow give them better joints. It can allow give them better joints. It can allow nutrient-rich blood flow back into areas nutrient-rich blood flow back into areas nutrient-rich blood flow back into areas that are that are hurting or need that are that are hurting or need that are that are hurting or need healed. Um, but it's only one part of healed. Um, but it's only one part of healed. Um, but it's only one part of the solution. And so that's kind of the solution. And so that's kind of the solution. And so that's kind of where we evolved. You know, you asked where we evolved. You know, you asked where we evolved. You know, you asked about different brands and different about different brands and different about different brands and different beds. We found ourselves uh early on beds. We found ourselves uh early on beds. We found ourselves uh early on with a bed or with a kind of a really with a bed or with a kind of a really with a bed or with a kind of a really cool little bed company or wellness cool little bed company or wellness cool little bed company or wellness company, but uh we wanted more market company, but uh we wanted more market company, but uh we wanted more market share and so we decided to build and buy share and so we decided to build and buy share and so we decided to build and buy uh multiple different businesses. So uh multiple different businesses. So uh multiple different businesses. So some brands we started from scratch. Um some brands we started from scratch. Um some brands we started from scratch. Um some brands we bought, we bought a brand some brands we bought, we bought a brand some brands we bought, we bought a brand from Envision Industries in Witchah from Envision Industries in Witchah from Envision Industries in Witchah called Pet Envy. We built a company called Pet Envy. We built a company called Pet Envy. We built a company called Pup IQ. Um, we built a brand called Pup IQ. Um, we built a brand called Pup IQ. Um, we built a brand called Toughpup. Um, and we also, um, called Toughpup. Um, and we also, um, called Toughpup. Um, and we also, um, snap forward a few years later, we snap forward a few years later, we snap forward a few years later, we built, we bought a company called built, we bought a company called built, we bought a company called sitstay.com, which was one of the first sitstay.com, which was one of the first sitstay.com, which was one of the first e-commerce companies selling pet e-commerce companies selling pet e-commerce companies selling pet products online. And so, uh, we did for products online. And so, uh, we did for products online. And so, uh, we did for the next 10 years or so, we had, uh, the next 10 years or so, we had, uh, the next 10 years or so, we had, uh, what is, uh, often called, you know, the what is, uh, often called, you know, the what is, uh, often called, you know, the brand aggregation route. So, since we brand aggregation route. So, since we brand aggregation route. So, since we had built our own manufacturing and had built our own manufacturing and had built our own manufacturing and since we were somewhat vertically since we were somewhat vertically since we were somewhat vertically integrated, um, we were able to kind of integrated, um, we were able to kind of integrated, um, we were able to kind of attack the market in different segments. attack the market in different segments. attack the market in different segments. And the reason is is, you know, not all And the reason is is, you know, not all And the reason is is, you know, not all dog people are the same. You have some dog people are the same. You have some dog people are the same. You have some dog people that are, you know, military dog people that are, you know, military dog people that are, you know, military dog handlers. You have some people that, dog handlers. You have some people that, dog handlers. You have some people that, you know, dress their dog up with, you know, dress their dog up with, you know, dress their dog up with, you know, in bow ties and push them around know, in bow ties and push them around know, in bow ties and push them around in strollers, you know, so they're not in strollers, you know, so they're not in strollers, you know, so they're not all the same people. And I always all the same people. And I always all the same people. And I always believed that it's important that your believed that it's important that your believed that it's important that your brand helps speak to that particular brand helps speak to that particular brand helps speak to that particular person. It helps resonate. And so you person. It helps resonate. And so you person. It helps resonate. And so you had I we kind of diversified that way. had I we kind of diversified that way. had I we kind of diversified that way. Um but yeah, we took that multibrand Um but yeah, we took that multibrand Um but yeah, we took that multibrand approach and we we we built it out and approach and we we we built it out and approach and we we we built it out and uh yeah, we were we were off to the uh yeah, we were we were off to the uh yeah, we were we were off to the races there. Um in retrospect, one of races there. Um in retrospect, one of races there. Um in retrospect, one of the lessons I learned was uh the two the lessons I learned was uh the two the lessons I learned was uh the two major lessons I learned was one of them major lessons I learned was one of them major lessons I learned was one of them was that we were uh splitting our was that we were uh splitting our was that we were uh splitting our attention too much. Right? And I think attention too much. Right? And I think attention too much. Right? And I think this is a lesson that, you know, I've this is a lesson that, you know, I've this is a lesson that, you know, I've been told a hundred times by 100 been told a hundred times by 100 been told a hundred times by 100 different very smart business people and different very smart business people and different very smart business people and mentors that shiny object syndrome is mentors that shiny object syndrome is mentors that shiny object syndrome is real. and you'd put all your focus real. and you'd put all your focus real. and you'd put all your focus behind one thing and I'd be like, "Yeah, behind one thing and I'd be like, "Yeah, behind one thing and I'd be like, "Yeah, I get it, but I'm trying to do something I get it, but I'm trying to do something I get it, but I'm trying to do something else and you guys don't understand how else and you guys don't understand how else and you guys don't understand how shiny this one is." shiny this one is." shiny this one is." » Exactly. There's always something like » Exactly. There's always something like » Exactly. There's always something like over the horizon. And so, you know, I over the horizon. And so, you know, I over the horizon. And so, you know, I did split the attention. That was one did split the attention. That was one did split the attention. That was one thing. And the other thing is, thing. And the other thing is, thing. And the other thing is, » you know, I you know, I read the » you know, I you know, I read the » you know, I you know, I read the Charles Ko book and one of the one of Charles Ko book and one of the one of Charles Ko book and one of the one of the things about his book was vertical the things about his book was vertical the things about his book was vertical integration. And so I thought vertical integration. And so I thought vertical integration. And so I thought vertical integration was like the holy grail like integration was like the holy grail like integration was like the holy grail like control your own manufacturing, control your own manufacturing, control your own manufacturing, control the quality, you know. Um and what in the quality, you know. Um and what in the quality, you know. Um and what in retrospect that was actually a very retrospect that was actually a very retrospect that was actually a very limiting factor because yeah we had a limiting factor because yeah we had a limiting factor because yeah we had a lot of control but it was very heavy. It lot of control but it was very heavy. It lot of control but it was very heavy. It was expensive, a lot of inventory, a lot was expensive, a lot of inventory, a lot was expensive, a lot of inventory, a lot of employees and you could only scale as of employees and you could only scale as of employees and you could only scale as big as the building you had, as the big as the building you had, as the big as the building you had, as the amount of machines you had, as the amount of machines you had, as the amount of machines you had, as the amount of people you could hire. And so amount of people you could hire. And so amount of people you could hire. And so we moved five times in six years in the we moved five times in six years in the we moved five times in six years in the beginning. Like we kept big moving to a beginning. Like we kept big moving to a beginning. Like we kept big moving to a bigger office and a bigger building and bigger office and a bigger building and bigger office and a bigger building and then I we found ourselves downtown with then I we found ourselves downtown with then I we found ourselves downtown with a very large industrial building. Um in a very large industrial building. Um in a very large industrial building. Um in retrospect uh you know hindsight's 2020 but uh the uh you know hindsight's 2020 but uh the uh you know hindsight's 2020 but uh the vertical integration thing I think vertical integration thing I think vertical integration thing I think limited our ability to scale because we limited our ability to scale because we limited our ability to scale because we could only scale with the money that we could only scale with the money that we could only scale with the money that we had, the people we had, the machines we had, the people we had, the machines we had, the people we had, the machines we had, the square footage that we had. So had, the square footage that we had. So had, the square footage that we had. So outsourcing that to someone that did outsourcing that to someone that did outsourcing that to someone that did that specifically um would have I think that specifically um would have I think that specifically um would have I think if I could go back would probably be the if I could go back would probably be the if I could go back would probably be the route to go. the route to go. the route to go. » Yeah. Outsourcing manufacturing and » Yeah. Outsourcing manufacturing and » Yeah. Outsourcing manufacturing and distribution » um or fulfillment I should say. » um or fulfillment I should say. » um or fulfillment I should say. » I would say probably both. You know I'm » I would say probably both. You know I'm » I would say probably both. You know I'm a fan of 3PLs but it just depends on the a fan of 3PLs but it just depends on the a fan of 3PLs but it just depends on the product right and dog beds in product right and dog beds in product right and dog beds in particular aren't great products for particular aren't great products for particular aren't great products for 3PL's because you know they're a 3PL's because you know they're a 3PL's because you know they're a little bit they have a big footprint. little bit they have a big footprint. little bit they have a big footprint. They cost a lot to store. They cost a lot to store. They cost a lot to store. » Yeah. But yeah, I think there's a » Yeah. But yeah, I think there's a » Yeah. But yeah, I think there's a definitely a lesson for a lot of people definitely a lesson for a lot of people definitely a lesson for a lot of people that they don't need you don't need to that they don't need you don't need to that they don't need you don't need to be sh at a certain standpoint. You don't be sh at a certain standpoint. You don't be sh at a certain standpoint. You don't need to have you don't have to make it need to have you don't have to make it need to have you don't have to make it yourself. You don't have to ship it yourself. You don't have to ship it yourself. You don't have to ship it yourself. And you can focus on, yourself. And you can focus on, yourself. And you can focus on, you know, the stuff that really matters. How know, the stuff that really matters. How know, the stuff that really matters. How do you get more credit cards into the do you get more credit cards into the do you get more credit cards into the you know, how do you get more people to you know, how do you get more people to you know, how do you get more people to cross that threshold? How do you get cross that threshold? How do you get cross that threshold? How do you get more uh register rings at the end of the more uh register rings at the end of the more uh register rings at the end of the day? How do you increase your average day? How do you increase your average day? How do you increase your average order value? All that type of stuff. order value? All that type of stuff. order value? All that type of stuff. » Yep. » Yep. » Yep. » Yeah. The psychology of e-commerce is » Yeah. The psychology of e-commerce is » Yeah. The psychology of e-commerce is fascinating. And you've been in Shopify fascinating. And you've been in Shopify fascinating. And you've been in Shopify for a long time, correct? You've been for a long time, correct? You've been for a long time, correct? You've been around it a long time. talk about that a around it a long time. talk about that a around it a long time. talk about that a little bit. Uh the evolution of Trevor's little bit. Uh the evolution of Trevor's little bit. Uh the evolution of Trevor's understanding from the first version of understanding from the first version of understanding from the first version of e-commerce to what you know today. e-commerce to what you know today. e-commerce to what you know today. » Oh man. » Oh man. » Oh man. » Anything in between? » Anything in between? » Anything in between? » Well, there's a lot of painful lessons. » Well, there's a lot of painful lessons. » Well, there's a lot of painful lessons. And so, uh you know, when I when I talk And so, uh you know, when I when I talk And so, uh you know, when I when I talk to to early stage founders, uh in our to to early stage founders, uh in our to to early stage founders, uh in our current business, American Petworks, I current business, American Petworks, I current business, American Petworks, I really focus a lot on on the lessons we really focus a lot on on the lessons we really focus a lot on on the lessons we learned from the painful stuff because learned from the painful stuff because learned from the painful stuff because of everybody wants to talk about of everybody wants to talk about of everybody wants to talk about strawberry fields and rainbows, but at strawberry fields and rainbows, but at strawberry fields and rainbows, but at the end of the day, you know, we made a the end of the day, you know, we made a the end of the day, you know, we made a lot of mistakes along the way. Uh, and lot of mistakes along the way. Uh, and lot of mistakes along the way. Uh, and those are the ones that we learned the those are the ones that we learned the those are the ones that we learned the most from. And um, you know, when we most from. And um, you know, when we most from. And um, you know, when we first started off, I started off, you first started off, I started off, you first started off, I started off, you know, with a with a overseas programmer. know, with a with a overseas programmer. know, with a with a overseas programmer. We were doing a Jumla website. You know, We were doing a Jumla website. You know, We were doing a Jumla website. You know, I think we spent $200,000 originally I think we spent $200,000 originally I think we spent $200,000 originally building the website over the first building the website over the first building the website over the first couple years. You know, nowadays, you couple years. You know, nowadays, you couple years. You know, nowadays, you know, AI can spin you one up. That's, know, AI can spin you one up. That's, know, AI can spin you one up. That's, you know, okay. Um, but it definitely you know, okay. Um, but it definitely you know, okay. Um, but it definitely doesn't cost $200,000. Uh, doesn't cost $200,000. Uh, doesn't cost $200,000. Uh, » you know, uh, Google Ads was a really » you know, uh, Google Ads was a really » you know, uh, Google Ads was a really expensive lesson. you can lose a lot of expensive lesson. you can lose a lot of expensive lesson. you can lose a lot of money uh doing Google ads if it's not, money uh doing Google ads if it's not, money uh doing Google ads if it's not, you know, working the right way or you know, working the right way or you know, working the right way or you're not tracking the right way or you're not tracking the right way or you're not tracking the right way or you don't have your attribution the right don't have your attribution the right don't have your attribution the right way. I didn't know anything about that. way. I didn't know anything about that. way. I didn't know anything about that. So, lost a lot of money uh wasted a lot So, lost a lot of money uh wasted a lot So, lost a lot of money uh wasted a lot of time. Kind of I spun our wheels of time. Kind of I spun our wheels of time. Kind of I spun our wheels a lot because we had a lot of great a lot because we had a lot of great a lot because we had a lot of great revenue years that we but we weren't revenue years that we but we weren't revenue years that we but we weren't making money, right? And it felt like we making money, right? And it felt like we making money, right? And it felt like we were being successful because we're like were being successful because we're like were being successful because we're like shipping all this stuff every day, but shipping all this stuff every day, but shipping all this stuff every day, but are we really successful if you know are we really successful if you know are we really successful if you know at the end of the day you're not keeping at the end of the day you're not keeping at the end of the day you're not keeping any of that money? And and so that was any of that money? And and so that was any of that money? And and so that was kind of a a revolution, a realization. kind of a a revolution, a realization. kind of a a revolution, a realization. Um and nowadays, snap forward since Um and nowadays, snap forward since Um and nowadays, snap forward since COVID, you can't run a business that COVID, you can't run a business that COVID, you can't run a business that way. Your topline revenue isn't going to way. Your topline revenue isn't going to way. Your topline revenue isn't going to just carry the day. You have to be just carry the day. You have to be just carry the day. You have to be profitable. You have to focus on the profitable. You have to focus on the profitable. You have to focus on the kind of the fundamental blocking and kind of the fundamental blocking and kind of the fundamental blocking and tackling in order to be successful. tackling in order to be successful. tackling in order to be successful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. » Um but yeah, we could talk about painful » Um but yeah, we could talk about painful » Um but yeah, we could talk about painful lessons learned. Uh yeah, all day. lessons learned. Uh yeah, all day. lessons learned. Uh yeah, all day. » And I always recommend anyone that uh » And I always recommend anyone that uh » And I always recommend anyone that uh pitches me an idea like and you've pitches me an idea like and you've pitches me an idea like and you've experienced this too, I'm sure. Once you experienced this too, I'm sure. Once you experienced this too, I'm sure. Once you come up with a product and you start come up with a product and you start come up with a product and you start selling it online, well, that draws selling it online, well, that draws selling it online, well, that draws attention and then people have ideas and attention and then people have ideas and attention and then people have ideas and then they come to you with ideas and then they come to you with ideas and then they come to you with ideas and then they want to do something and it's then they want to do something and it's then they want to do something and it's really you see yourself kind of really you see yourself kind of really you see yourself kind of like, oh, I remember when I thought that like, oh, I remember when I thought that like, oh, I remember when I thought that this guy was the limit. There's no way this guy was the limit. There's no way this guy was the limit. There's no way this is going to fail. This is a great this is going to fail. This is a great this is going to fail. This is a great idea. It's going to be super easy. Once idea. It's going to be super easy. Once idea. It's going to be super easy. Once I just get it online, it's going to it's I just get it online, it's going to it's I just get it online, it's going to it's going to sell like hot cakes. going to sell like hot cakes. going to sell like hot cakes. And I'm sure we both have been guilty of And I'm sure we both have been guilty of And I'm sure we both have been guilty of that of like we grab another product that of like we grab another product that of like we grab another product line or line or line or » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Well, I mean, you have to be an » Well, I mean, you have to be an » Well, I mean, you have to be an optimist. Yeah. And it's it's I don't optimist. Yeah. And it's it's I don't optimist. Yeah. And it's it's I don't know where I heard this, but it always know where I heard this, but it always know where I heard this, but it always stuck with me. It's like if you're an stuck with me. It's like if you're an stuck with me. It's like if you're an entrepreneur, you have to be an optimist entrepreneur, you have to be an optimist entrepreneur, you have to be an optimist because it's it's like being an because it's it's like being an because it's it's like being an astronaut. If you're going to strap astronaut. If you're going to strap astronaut. If you're going to strap yourself to the top of a rocket, yourself to the top of a rocket, yourself to the top of a rocket, you better be pretty optimistic that it's better be pretty optimistic that it's better be pretty optimistic that it's going to take off and fly into space, going to take off and fly into space, going to take off and fly into space, right? Um, and so it's very difficult right? Um, and so it's very difficult right? Um, and so it's very difficult um, to be pessimistic and be an um, to be pessimistic and be an um, to be pessimistic and be an entrepreneur at the same time. And I entrepreneur at the same time. And I entrepreneur at the same time. And I think we always see the best in things think we always see the best in things think we always see the best in things and we're always looking for the right and we're always looking for the right and we're always looking for the right opportunities. U, but you brought up an opportunities. U, but you brought up an opportunities. U, but you brought up an important point. You know, for me, I do important point. You know, for me, I do important point. You know, for me, I do see » a lot of the same mistakes that I made. » a lot of the same mistakes that I made. » a lot of the same mistakes that I made. I think, uh, I'm not too hard on myself I think, uh, I'm not too hard on myself I think, uh, I'm not too hard on myself because they're very common mistakes. because they're very common mistakes. because they're very common mistakes. And, you know, nowadays, uh, you know, And, you know, nowadays, uh, you know, And, you know, nowadays, uh, you know, we still we still have buddy rest. Um, a we still we still have buddy rest. Um, a we still we still have buddy rest. Um, a lot of our other properties we either lot of our other properties we either lot of our other properties we either divested from or we sold off. Um, and in divested from or we sold off. Um, and in divested from or we sold off. Um, and in 2020, we really started making products 2020, we really started making products 2020, we really started making products for other people with our manufacturing for other people with our manufacturing for other people with our manufacturing business. By 2022, we started business. By 2022, we started business. By 2022, we started outsourcing the manufacturing. And outsourcing the manufacturing. And outsourcing the manufacturing. And really where I spent a lot of my time really where I spent a lot of my time really where I spent a lot of my time today is helping early stage founders in today is helping early stage founders in today is helping early stage founders in the pet space build products the right the pet space build products the right the pet space build products the right way, source products the right way, and way, source products the right way, and way, source products the right way, and kind of help them increase their chances kind of help them increase their chances kind of help them increase their chances of success. And, you know, I see the of success. And, you know, I see the of success. And, you know, I see the same » the same kind of um challenges that » the same kind of um challenges that » the same kind of um challenges that we run into with them all the time. In we run into with them all the time. In we run into with them all the time. In fact, like the biggest one is people fact, like the biggest one is people fact, like the biggest one is people come to me looking for manufacturing or come to me looking for manufacturing or come to me looking for manufacturing or looking for sourcing, but they skip the looking for sourcing, but they skip the looking for sourcing, but they skip the most important part, which is design. most important part, which is design. most important part, which is design. » And I always I always try to take early » And I always I always try to take early » And I always I always try to take early stage entrepreneurs back to the design stage entrepreneurs back to the design stage entrepreneurs back to the design phase because I believe your chances of phase because I believe your chances of phase because I believe your chances of success are predicated on a lot of the success are predicated on a lot of the success are predicated on a lot of the decisions you make in design. much like decisions you make in design. much like decisions you make in design. much like uh climbing a mountain. If you're going uh climbing a mountain. If you're going uh climbing a mountain. If you're going to climb a mountain and be successful to climb a mountain and be successful to climb a mountain and be successful and get to the top, the stuff that and get to the top, the stuff that and get to the top, the stuff that you choose to take with you at base camp you choose to take with you at base camp you choose to take with you at base camp is going to be a lot of the a lot it's is going to be a lot of the a lot it's is going to be a lot of the a lot it's going to dictate a lot of how successful going to dictate a lot of how successful going to dictate a lot of how successful you're going to be getting up that you're going to be getting up that you're going to be getting up that mountain. And so, uh but it's the it's mountain. And so, uh but it's the it's mountain. And so, uh but it's the it's the step that most people skip. So, you the step that most people skip. So, you the step that most people skip. So, you know, I always help people think through know, I always help people think through know, I always help people think through that. How do we build a product with that. How do we build a product with that. How do we build a product with what we call market DNA or championship what we call market DNA or championship what we call market DNA or championship DNA? So, how do we build it to have the DNA? So, how do we build it to have the DNA? So, how do we build it to have the right margin profile? It's not just how right margin profile? It's not just how right margin profile? It's not just how it looks. It's not just how it works. it looks. It's not just how it works. it looks. It's not just how it works. It's who wants to buy it, where does it It's who wants to buy it, where does it It's who wants to buy it, where does it fit, where do you find these people, fit, where do you find these people, fit, where do you find these people, what's the unique selling proposition, what's the unique selling proposition, what's the unique selling proposition, what makes it compelling to them, what makes it compelling to them, what makes it compelling to them, what makes them motivated to break out their makes them motivated to break out their makes them motivated to break out their credit card. And we build all of that credit card. And we build all of that credit card. And we build all of that now into our early stage uh design uh now into our early stage uh design uh now into our early stage uh design uh projects with all of our entrepreneurs projects with all of our entrepreneurs projects with all of our entrepreneurs that we work with. That's awesome. Talk that we work with. That's awesome. Talk that we work with. That's awesome. Talk about margin. That was a hard lesson I about margin. That was a hard lesson I about margin. That was a hard lesson I learned was understanding what margin learned was understanding what margin learned was understanding what margin sets you up for a successful uh sets you up for a successful uh sets you up for a successful uh e-commerce product. And one number I e-commerce product. And one number I e-commerce product. And one number I heard for a long time after the fact, heard for a long time after the fact, heard for a long time after the fact, like never heard this number before I like never heard this number before I like never heard this number before I did e-commerce uh in the barbecue did e-commerce uh in the barbecue did e-commerce uh in the barbecue industry specifically, but in Amazon is industry specifically, but in Amazon is industry specifically, but in Amazon is if you use Amazon as like your uh if you use Amazon as like your uh if you use Amazon as like your uh baseline of how could I make money on baseline of how could I make money on baseline of how could I make money on Amazon, you're way more successful like Amazon, you're way more successful like Amazon, you're way more successful like on Shopify, right? Because the fees are on Shopify, right? Because the fees are on Shopify, right? Because the fees are so extreme. So 6x cost was so extreme. So 6x cost was so extreme. So 6x cost was » the number everybody was chasing. Didn't » the number everybody was chasing. Didn't » the number everybody was chasing. Didn't know this till years later. And I'm know this till years later. And I'm know this till years later. And I'm like, but it made sense because like, but it made sense because like, but it made sense because marketing's so freaking expensive to marketing's so freaking expensive to marketing's so freaking expensive to your point. [clears throat] Google ads, your point. [clears throat] Google ads, your point. [clears throat] Google ads, Facebook ads, like it's hardensive every Facebook ads, like it's hardensive every Facebook ads, like it's hardensive every day, day, day, » every day. And it's what I mean, it was, » every day. And it's what I mean, it was, » every day. And it's what I mean, it was, dude, during COVID and precoid, uh, you dude, during COVID and precoid, uh, you dude, during COVID and precoid, uh, you know, 4 to1 rorowaz was pretty know, 4 to1 rorowaz was pretty know, 4 to1 rorowaz was pretty achievable with some even just basic achievable with some even just basic achievable with some even just basic products and we had products hitting 10, products and we had products hitting 10, products and we had products hitting 10, 12, 15 rorowaz during COVID, which was 12, 15 rorowaz during COVID, which was 12, 15 rorowaz during COVID, which was very misleading, right? So that was a very misleading, right? So that was a very misleading, right? So that was a great time for e-commerce. a great time great time for e-commerce. a great time great time for e-commerce. a great time for e-commerce and now it's like in my for e-commerce and now it's like in my for e-commerce and now it's like in my opinion this is like one of the hardest opinion this is like one of the hardest opinion this is like one of the hardest times ever in e-commerce as with every times ever in e-commerce as with every times ever in e-commerce as with every the whole climate the whole everything the whole climate the whole everything the whole climate the whole everything going on. Uh, but when you I I'm going on. Uh, but when you I I'm going on. Uh, but when you I I'm curious. Samuel walks in like, "Yo, curious. Samuel walks in like, "Yo, curious. Samuel walks in like, "Yo, Trevor, got a revolutionary leash idea Trevor, got a revolutionary leash idea Trevor, got a revolutionary leash idea for dogs, right? This leash will be for dogs, right? This leash will be for dogs, right? This leash will be better than everything." What would better than everything." What would better than everything." What would be your first advice on uh margin for a be your first advice on uh margin for a be your first advice on uh margin for a product like that if I wanted to go product like that if I wanted to go product like that if I wanted to go direct e-commerce? I'm not talking direct e-commerce? I'm not talking direct e-commerce? I'm not talking wholesale. And then I'd like your blend wholesale. And then I'd like your blend wholesale. And then I'd like your blend in of wholesale perspective. in of wholesale perspective. in of wholesale perspective. » Sure. Yeah. Going back to the whole, you » Sure. Yeah. Going back to the whole, you » Sure. Yeah. Going back to the whole, you know, climbing the mountain. Like we know, climbing the mountain. Like we know, climbing the mountain. Like we help people climb the mountain and they help people climb the mountain and they help people climb the mountain and they want up the mountain, but we say, "Hey, want up the mountain, but we say, "Hey, want up the mountain, but we say, "Hey, we got to make sure we have the right we got to make sure we have the right we got to make sure we have the right attributes. You got to make sure you attributes. You got to make sure you attributes. You got to make sure you have an ice axe. You got to make sure have an ice axe. You got to make sure have an ice axe. You got to make sure you have, you know, winter clothing. Got you have, you know, winter clothing. Got you have, you know, winter clothing. Got to have the rope. to have the rope. to have the rope. » Um, and I would say the number one KPI » Um, and I would say the number one KPI » Um, and I would say the number one KPI that I think is the most important uh that I think is the most important uh that I think is the most important uh predictor of success is margin. Like if predictor of success is margin. Like if predictor of success is margin. Like if you have if you have enough margin on you have if you have enough margin on you have if you have enough margin on the product, you have the ability to the product, you have the ability to the product, you have the ability to deploy money into ads. You can work with deploy money into ads. You can work with deploy money into ads. You can work with an omni channel approach. You can work an omni channel approach. You can work an omni channel approach. You can work with Chewy and Amazon and Target. If you with Chewy and Amazon and Target. If you with Chewy and Amazon and Target. If you don't have enough margin, you can't work don't have enough margin, you can't work don't have enough margin, you can't work with anybody and your ads won't work. with anybody and your ads won't work. with anybody and your ads won't work. So, it's like the margin is so important So, it's like the margin is so important So, it's like the margin is so important and it's so much more important than we and it's so much more important than we and it's so much more important than we ever realize, uh, you know, as we're ever realize, uh, you know, as we're ever realize, uh, you know, as we're going into the as we're going into it. going into the as we're going into it. going into the as we're going into it. And I think a big fallacy that I find And I think a big fallacy that I find And I think a big fallacy that I find entrepreneurs have on a regular basis entrepreneurs have on a regular basis entrepreneurs have on a regular basis that I had was, oh, we'll figure that I had was, oh, we'll figure that I had was, oh, we'll figure that out later. Like, oh, we'll sell enough out later. Like, oh, we'll sell enough out later. Like, oh, we'll sell enough later to get economy of scale. We'll get later to get economy of scale. We'll get later to get economy of scale. We'll get our price down later. our price down later. our price down later. » Amazon model. Yeah. We don't need to » Amazon model. Yeah. We don't need to » Amazon model. Yeah. We don't need to make money for 20 years, but we're going make money for 20 years, but we're going make money for 20 years, but we're going to make a lot of money in 20 years. And to make a lot of money in 20 years. And to make a lot of money in 20 years. And that's fine if you're Amazon, but for uh that's fine if you're Amazon, but for uh that's fine if you're Amazon, but for uh for early stage founders, that just for early stage founders, that just for early stage founders, that just doesn't work that way, you know, and by doesn't work that way, you know, and by doesn't work that way, you know, and by the time you start to get some maybe, the time you start to get some maybe, the time you start to get some maybe, you know, escape velocity, uh you're you know, escape velocity, uh you're you know, escape velocity, uh you're going to have competition come in. And going to have competition come in. And going to have competition come in. And that's what happened to us is that we that's what happened to us is that we that's what happened to us is that we didn't have going back to my story about didn't have going back to my story about didn't have going back to my story about at the beginning how we didn't have at the beginning how we didn't have at the beginning how we didn't have enough margin to be successful. Um you enough margin to be successful. Um you enough margin to be successful. Um you know, we had plenty of margin to be know, we had plenty of margin to be know, we had plenty of margin to be successful when there when we were in successful when there when we were in successful when there when we were in blue ocean and there wasn't any blue ocean and there wasn't any blue ocean and there wasn't any competition, but as soon as the competition, but as soon as the competition, but as soon as the competition comes in, you better have competition comes in, you better have competition comes in, you better have the margins you need in order to be the margins you need in order to be the margins you need in order to be successful. So that's the number one KPI successful. So that's the number one KPI successful. So that's the number one KPI we talk about is like what margin we talk about is like what margin we talk about is like what margin profile do you need in order to be profile do you need in order to be profile do you need in order to be successful in the channels that you're successful in the channels that you're successful in the channels that you're going through. And those look different. going through. And those look different. going through. And those look different. It looks different if you're going It looks different if you're going It looks different if you're going wholesale. It looks different if you're wholesale. It looks different if you're wholesale. It looks different if you're going into big box retailers. It looks going into big box retailers. It looks going into big box retailers. It looks different if you're going to mom and pop different if you're going to mom and pop different if you're going to mom and pop boutiques. And it looks different if boutiques. And it looks different if boutiques. And it looks different if you're going into Shopify or Amazon, for you're going into Shopify or Amazon, for you're going into Shopify or Amazon, for example. And having that is the number example. And having that is the number example. And having that is the number one thing. And so, uh, that's part of one thing. And so, uh, that's part of one thing. And so, uh, that's part of our market DNA or our market DNA or our market DNA or our championship DNA approach is how do we championship DNA approach is how do we championship DNA approach is how do we build this product with the right build this product with the right build this product with the right attributes for to increase your chance attributes for to increase your chance attributes for to increase your chance of success. And a couple of those things of success. And a couple of those things of success. And a couple of those things are, you know, really simple like a are, you know, really simple like a are, you know, really simple like a minimum margin of a 65 point margin, minimum margin of a 65 point margin, minimum margin of a 65 point margin, right? Um, having some sort of uh strong right? Um, having some sort of uh strong right? Um, having some sort of uh strong average order value, having some sort of average order value, having some sort of average order value, having some sort of lifetime value component, having some lifetime value component, having some lifetime value component, having some sort of redundant supply chain, you sort of redundant supply chain, you sort of redundant supply chain, you know, having a supply chain that can know, having a supply chain that can know, having a supply chain that can scale. You know, like what we do is we scale. You know, like what we do is we scale. You know, like what we do is we help these early stage founders make help these early stage founders make help these early stage founders make sure that they understand there's sure that they understand there's sure that they understand there's probably 10 things on this checklist probably 10 things on this checklist probably 10 things on this checklist that will help you be successful. And if that will help you be successful. And if that will help you be successful. And if you have eight out of 10, you're in you have eight out of 10, you're in you have eight out of 10, you're in pretty good shape. If you have six out pretty good shape. If you have six out pretty good shape. If you have six out of 10, it's going to be tough. If you of 10, it's going to be tough. If you of 10, it's going to be tough. If you have four out of 10, you're doomed. And have four out of 10, you're doomed. And have four out of 10, you're doomed. And so building the product with the right so building the product with the right so building the product with the right attributes to be successful is so attributes to be successful is so attributes to be successful is so paramount. And that's what we really paramount. And that's what we really paramount. And that's what we really focus our energy on. focus our energy on. focus our energy on. » That that's a great concept of building » That that's a great concept of building » That that's a great concept of building a scorecard like profiling a product, a scorecard like profiling a product, a scorecard like profiling a product, right? Okay, we got your idea. Let's right? Okay, we got your idea. Let's right? Okay, we got your idea. Let's take it through our scorecard. Let's see take it through our scorecard. Let's see take it through our scorecard. Let's see what score you actually get. And then what score you actually get. And then what score you actually get. And then here's the moments for improvement. Man, here's the moments for improvement. Man, here's the moments for improvement. Man, if I Yeah. Hindsight, if I could go back if I Yeah. Hindsight, if I could go back if I Yeah. Hindsight, if I could go back in time and have some concept like that in time and have some concept like that in time and have some concept like that before I ship the product, put it on before I ship the product, put it on before I ship the product, put it on Amazon, threw up a Shopify website. Cuz Amazon, threw up a Shopify website. Cuz Amazon, threw up a Shopify website. Cuz once you get good at that, right, you once you get good at that, right, you once you get good at that, right, you can do it really fast. Like we got can do it really fast. Like we got can do it really fast. Like we got pretty good at that. Got really good pretty good at that. Got really good pretty good at that. Got really good people uh around us like Tyler that can people uh around us like Tyler that can people uh around us like Tyler that can spin up a beautiful Shopify site, you spin up a beautiful Shopify site, you spin up a beautiful Shopify site, you know, really quick and a whole brand know, really quick and a whole brand know, really quick and a whole brand profile. So like you kind of get profile. So like you kind of get profile. So like you kind of get addicted. Uh, and that might be the addicted. Uh, and that might be the addicted. Uh, and that might be the wrong word, but building and creating wrong word, but building and creating wrong word, but building and creating something is almost like more important something is almost like more important something is almost like more important to you, which is kind of naive than the to you, which is kind of naive than the to you, which is kind of naive than the actual business model and how it's all actual business model and how it's all actual business model and how it's all going to play out in like a year or two going to play out in like a year or two going to play out in like a year or two years. years. years. » I think addicted might be the right word » I think addicted might be the right word » I think addicted might be the right word because » Yeah, cuz I did that's where that you » Yeah, cuz I did that's where that you » Yeah, cuz I did that's where that you talk about like the shiny objects that talk about like the shiny objects that talk about like the shiny objects that has been my focus the last uh two years has been my focus the last uh two years has been my focus the last uh two years and still got a long ways to go. But and still got a long ways to go. But and still got a long ways to go. But simplify, focus, go all in on something simplify, focus, go all in on something simplify, focus, go all in on something and stay cuz you're very uh what's the and stay cuz you're very uh what's the and stay cuz you're very uh what's the word? I was naive to think what was a word? I was naive to think what was a word? I was naive to think what was a passive or active investment. I really passive or active investment. I really passive or active investment. I really thought I built a lot of passive thought I built a lot of passive thought I built a lot of passive investments. Well, come to find out, investments. Well, come to find out, investments. Well, come to find out, they're not very passive if they're they're not very passive if they're they're not very passive if they're built around one guy who decides to not built around one guy who decides to not built around one guy who decides to not be there anymore and then you're the guy be there anymore and then you're the guy be there anymore and then you're the guy that's got to go back every time, right? that's got to go back every time, right? that's got to go back every time, right? And so it's very different than buying And so it's very different than buying And so it's very different than buying real estate or putting money in the real estate or putting money in the real estate or putting money in the market. uh like building something market. uh like building something market. uh like building something that's passive, taking all your interest that's passive, taking all your interest that's passive, taking all your interest away and that's probably what right away and that's probably what right away and that's probably what right split your attention. If you were able split your attention. If you were able split your attention. If you were able to bring in a brand that literally took to bring in a brand that literally took to bring in a brand that literally took no attention and it just turnurned, no attention and it just turnurned, no attention and it just turnurned, right? It just kept selling that'd be right? It just kept selling that'd be right? It just kept selling that'd be pretty passive. Like if it didn't change pretty passive. Like if it didn't change pretty passive. Like if it didn't change up any of your focus, any of your up any of your focus, any of your up any of your focus, any of your marketing um but yeah, marketing um but yeah, marketing um but yeah, » we only have so much time in the day » we only have so much time in the day » we only have so much time in the day though, right? And and not only that, I though, right? And and not only that, I though, right? And and not only that, I think our passion and our purpose when think our passion and our purpose when think our passion and our purpose when you divide it, it becomes really you divide it, it becomes really you divide it, it becomes really challenging. But, you know, I think challenging. But, you know, I think challenging. But, you know, I think addicted might be the right word. And I addicted might be the right word. And I addicted might be the right word. And I I I think that I I think that I I think that » you also something that most people » you also something that most people » you also something that most people don't talk about is you kind of get don't talk about is you kind of get don't talk about is you kind of get you kind of get used to the contact. you kind of get used to the contact. you kind of get used to the contact. Like it's almost like football or boxing Like it's almost like football or boxing Like it's almost like football or boxing where it's like, you know, you get where it's like, you know, you get where it's like, you know, you get punched in the head so much you kind of punched in the head so much you kind of punched in the head so much you kind of you kind of get used to it, right? you kind of get used to it, right? you kind of get used to it, right? you kind of roll with the punches and you kind of roll with the punches and you kind of roll with the punches and you and it's I wouldn't say you maybe you and it's I wouldn't say you maybe you and it's I wouldn't say you maybe like you like the pressure or you like you like the pressure or you like you like the pressure or you like the you like getting punched in the like the you like getting punched in the like the you like getting punched in the face every day, but you do get used to face every day, but you do get used to face every day, but you do get used to it and you know you learn how to you it and you know you learn how to you it and you know you learn how to you learn how to move forward anyway. And I learn how to move forward anyway. And I learn how to move forward anyway. And I think it it makes you incredibly think it it makes you incredibly think it it makes you incredibly resilient to go through some of those resilient to go through some of those resilient to go through some of those challenges that you know prepares you challenges that you know prepares you challenges that you know prepares you for what you might be you might be for what you might be you might be for what you might be you might be called to do later. Um, you know, for called to do later. Um, you know, for called to do later. Um, you know, for me, if I hadn't have made all the me, if I hadn't have made all the me, if I hadn't have made all the mistakes that we made and, um, if I mistakes that we made and, um, if I mistakes that we made and, um, if I hadn't have been so, so challenged over hadn't have been so, so challenged over hadn't have been so, so challenged over the, you know, first 10 years that we the, you know, first 10 years that we the, you know, first 10 years that we were building the business, I wouldn't were building the business, I wouldn't were building the business, I wouldn't be in the place to serve the early stage be in the place to serve the early stage be in the place to serve the early stage founders that we help now. And I founders that we help now. And I founders that we help now. And I wouldn't be able to help them avoid some wouldn't be able to help them avoid some wouldn't be able to help them avoid some of that same pain. So, I do feel like of that same pain. So, I do feel like of that same pain. So, I do feel like even though the good and the bad come even though the good and the bad come even though the good and the bad come together, um, it kind of comes together, um, it kind of comes together, um, it kind of comes together for a reason and it helps build you into for a reason and it helps build you into for a reason and it helps build you into the person that you are. And and I think the person that you are. And and I think the person that you are. And and I think there's a difference from sometimes I there's a difference from sometimes I there's a difference from sometimes I just feel like a total fraud, right? just feel like a total fraud, right? just feel like a total fraud, right? Like I get on this podcast and Like I get on this podcast and Like I get on this podcast and people see I own multiple companies and people see I own multiple companies and people see I own multiple companies and then I'm like, "Oh, if they only really then I'm like, "Oh, if they only really then I'm like, "Oh, if they only really knew, right? I've got some winners and knew, right? I've got some winners and knew, right? I've got some winners and I've got some big duds, right?" That I've got some big duds, right?" That I've got some big duds, right?" That that diversity is great, but at the end that diversity is great, but at the end that diversity is great, but at the end of the day, if you have equal losses to of the day, if you have equal losses to of the day, if you have equal losses to your equal wins, you're netting zero, your equal wins, you're netting zero, your equal wins, you're netting zero, right? And so that's that's that's the right? And so that's that's that's the right? And so that's that's that's the hard part about all of this. But I also hard part about all of this. But I also hard part about all of this. But I also think to your point, you that's like the think to your point, you that's like the think to your point, you that's like the team part you need, right? Regardless of team part you need, right? Regardless of team part you need, right? Regardless of how successful something was, there's how successful something was, there's how successful something was, there's still 90% of that stuff that people need still 90% of that stuff that people need still 90% of that stuff that people need at the beginning to build out to avoid at the beginning to build out to avoid at the beginning to build out to avoid all those mistakes to be more all those mistakes to be more all those mistakes to be more successful. And if I had access to successful. And if I had access to successful. And if I had access to something like that when I was building something like that when I was building something like that when I was building out or even knew, I had zero network of out or even knew, I had zero network of out or even knew, I had zero network of anybody that was in the space of anybody that was in the space of anybody that was in the space of e-commerce, especially in El Dredo, e-commerce, especially in El Dredo, e-commerce, especially in El Dredo, Kansas, right? There's not a lot of Kansas, right? There's not a lot of Kansas, right? There's not a lot of that going on here. Um, but to be able that going on here. Um, but to be able that going on here. Um, but to be able to identify and find people, I wish I to identify and find people, I wish I to identify and find people, I wish I would have spent way more money on would have spent way more money on would have spent way more money on concepts and consulting and coaching and concepts and consulting and coaching and concepts and consulting and coaching and probably spent more money in the last 5 probably spent more money in the last 5 probably spent more money in the last 5 years on that than I have in my 15 years on that than I have in my 15 years on that than I have in my 15 years of self-employment, right? Because I see of self-employment, right? Because I see of self-employment, right? Because I see that value now. I'm like, I'd rather that value now. I'm like, I'd rather that value now. I'm like, I'd rather spend a lot upfront to avoid way more spend a lot upfront to avoid way more spend a lot upfront to avoid way more expensive mistakes down the road. Sure. expensive mistakes down the road. Sure. expensive mistakes down the road. Sure. And there's kind of like this uh weird And there's kind of like this uh weird And there's kind of like this uh weird part about consulting I think that cuz part about consulting I think that cuz part about consulting I think that cuz you're you're in a concept of and I'm you're you're in a concept of and I'm you're you're in a concept of and I'm going to ask that but I think consulting going to ask that but I think consulting going to ask that but I think consulting people get bothered by it because people get bothered by it because people get bothered by it because they're like they just want to go and it they're like they just want to go and it they're like they just want to go and it slows everything down and it costs slows everything down and it costs slows everything down and it costs money. Sure. money. Sure. money. Sure. » Right. Like that's the business coaches » Right. Like that's the business coaches » Right. Like that's the business coaches slow everything down and it costs money. slow everything down and it costs money. slow everything down and it costs money. » And what you know on the other side of » And what you know on the other side of » And what you know on the other side of the table is it's not going to cost the table is it's not going to cost the table is it's not going to cost anything near what you're about to put anything near what you're about to put anything near what you're about to put yourself through. yourself through. yourself through. » True. True. And I will say you know I » True. True. And I will say you know I » True. True. And I will say you know I think business coaches I don't consider think business coaches I don't consider think business coaches I don't consider myself a coach. You know, I coach kids myself a coach. You know, I coach kids myself a coach. You know, I coach kids basketball. That's it. Right. I I don't basketball. That's it. Right. I I don't basketball. That's it. Right. I I don't give people advice and I don't coach give people advice and I don't coach give people advice and I don't coach people. I give I experience share. And people. I give I experience share. And people. I give I experience share. And um one experience I want to share really um one experience I want to share really um one experience I want to share really quick just because you said it is I quick just because you said it is I quick just because you said it is I think you're you're a humble champion think you're you're a humble champion think you're you're a humble champion and I've known you a long time, but and I've known you a long time, but and I've known you a long time, but you're a great entrepreneur. You're one you're a great entrepreneur. You're one you're a great entrepreneur. You're one of the best entrepreneurs I've ever met. of the best entrepreneurs I've ever met. of the best entrepreneurs I've ever met. You're one of the greatest entrepreneurs You're one of the greatest entrepreneurs You're one of the greatest entrepreneurs around this area for sure. So I know you around this area for sure. So I know you around this area for sure. So I know you maybe not be able to toot your own horn maybe not be able to toot your own horn maybe not be able to toot your own horn like that, but let me toot it for you like that, but let me toot it for you like that, but let me toot it for you because uh I've always been very because uh I've always been very because uh I've always been very impressed with everything that you've impressed with everything that you've impressed with everything that you've done. Um done. Um done. Um » appreciate that. Now that being said, » appreciate that. Now that being said, » appreciate that. Now that being said, you know, people don't know what they you know, people don't know what they you know, people don't know what they don't know. And um you know, business don't know. And um you know, business don't know. And um you know, business coaches, I think coaches in general and coaches, I think coaches in general and coaches, I think coaches in general and advisers, service providers, they have advisers, service providers, they have advisers, service providers, they have like they have a stigma about it. And like they have a stigma about it. And like they have a stigma about it. And and I do think that there's definitely a and I do think that there's definitely a and I do think that there's definitely a place with AI, you know, making place with AI, you know, making place with AI, you know, making everybody's an expert nowadays. everybody's an expert nowadays. everybody's an expert nowadays. Everybody thinks they can type something Everybody thinks they can type something Everybody thinks they can type something in and they know it. What I like to in and they know it. What I like to in and they know it. What I like to think about is that we provide kind of think about is that we provide kind of think about is that we provide kind of the trade craft that you only are able the trade craft that you only are able the trade craft that you only are able to get from someone who's been to the to get from someone who's been to the to get from someone who's been to the trade shows, someone who's had the pain, trade shows, someone who's had the pain, trade shows, someone who's had the pain, someone who's been ripped off by someone who's been ripped off by someone who's been ripped off by factories, someone who's had, you know, factories, someone who's had, you know, factories, someone who's had, you know, uh uh bad contracts written because you uh uh bad contracts written because you uh uh bad contracts written because you didn't understand the language and you didn't understand the language and you didn't understand the language and you got taken advantage of or whatever it got taken advantage of or whatever it got taken advantage of or whatever it might be. Those are the kind of might be. Those are the kind of might be. Those are the kind of experiences that we share that you won't experiences that we share that you won't experiences that we share that you won't find uh Chad GBT talking about. And find uh Chad GBT talking about. And find uh Chad GBT talking about. And ultimately, you know, what we help ultimately, you know, what we help ultimately, you know, what we help people through is is how do we help you people through is is how do we help you people through is is how do we help you figure out how to get the from A to B or figure out how to get the from A to B or figure out how to get the from A to B or A to Z or wherever it is with the least A to Z or wherever it is with the least A to Z or wherever it is with the least amount of risk possible. And so I built amount of risk possible. And so I built amount of risk possible. And so I built our entire American Petworks product our entire American Petworks product our entire American Petworks product team. Uh I built our entire offering team. Uh I built our entire offering team. Uh I built our entire offering just with the idea that we're helping just with the idea that we're helping just with the idea that we're helping early stage founders build product the early stage founders build product the early stage founders build product the right way, helping them, you know, uh right way, helping them, you know, uh right way, helping them, you know, uh increase their chances of success. Now increase their chances of success. Now increase their chances of success. Now whether they're successful or not, we whether they're successful or not, we whether they're successful or not, we ultimately don't have, you know, we're ultimately don't have, you know, we're ultimately don't have, you know, we're not we're not going to space with them. not we're not going to space with them. not we're not going to space with them. You know, we're just putting them in the You know, we're just putting them in the You know, we're just putting them in the rocket ship and we're we're putting them rocket ship and we're we're putting them rocket ship and we're we're putting them pointed in the right direction, but pointed in the right direction, but pointed in the right direction, but ultimately it's up to them to make the ultimately it's up to them to make the ultimately it's up to them to make the decision. decision. decision. » I love all your space analogies, by the » I love all your space analogies, by the » I love all your space analogies, by the way. They've all been pretty on point. way. They've all been pretty on point. way. They've all been pretty on point. » I don't know if I don't know how many » I don't know if I don't know how many » I don't know if I don't know how many I've dropped already. I've dropped already. I've dropped already. » Um, but so I mean really, but we help » Um, but so I mean really, but we help » Um, but so I mean really, but we help launch products. So, I think that launch products. So, I think that launch products. So, I think that there's a lot of uh there's a lot of uh there's a lot of uh there's a lot of uh there's a lot of uh there's a lot of uh a lot of a lot of stuff. a lot of a lot of stuff. a lot of a lot of stuff. I'm also a space nerd. I love, you know, I'm also a space nerd. I love, you know, I'm also a space nerd. I love, you know, I want to see you get to orbit. That's I want to see you get to orbit. That's I want to see you get to orbit. That's the goal. Less energy. Understanding the goal. Less energy. Understanding the goal. Less energy. Understanding even how orbit I've never thought about even how orbit I've never thought about even how orbit I've never thought about this analogy till this moment actually. this analogy till this moment actually. this analogy till this moment actually. But one day, like probably like 6 months But one day, like probably like 6 months But one day, like probably like 6 months ago, some SpaceX thing. I was like, ago, some SpaceX thing. I was like, ago, some SpaceX thing. I was like, "Wait, how do these satellites like stay "Wait, how do these satellites like stay "Wait, how do these satellites like stay in the spot forever, right? And how is in the spot forever, right? And how is in the spot forever, right? And how is there enough energy in there?" cuz I there enough energy in there?" cuz I there enough energy in there?" cuz I thought like there's rockets firing all thought like there's rockets firing all thought like there's rockets firing all the time and it was [clears throat] like the time and it was [clears throat] like the time and it was [clears throat] like no the a certain amount of velocity no the a certain amount of velocity no the a certain amount of velocity strategically in the right spot then it strategically in the right spot then it strategically in the right spot then it holds » but it's like a certain amount of » but it's like a certain amount of » but it's like a certain amount of momentum gets them into certain orbits momentum gets them into certain orbits momentum gets them into certain orbits at a certain trajectory then they hold at a certain trajectory then they hold at a certain trajectory then they hold in there and it's kind of like that's in there and it's kind of like that's in there and it's kind of like that's like the beauty that's key business I'm like the beauty that's key business I'm like the beauty that's key business I'm not a rocket scient not a rocket scient not a rocket scient I'm just giving you another analogy like I'm just giving you another analogy like I'm just giving you another analogy like that's what you're doing like if we like that's what you're doing like if we like that's what you're doing like if we can get you there it's going to be a can get you there it's going to be a can get you there it's going to be a turnkey profitable business that turnkey profitable business that turnkey profitable business that » well and the escape velocity is a really » well and the escape velocity is a really » well and the escape velocity is a really important because and I think that's actually one because and I think that's actually one because and I think that's actually one of the lessons I learned is that by of the lessons I learned is that by of the lessons I learned is that by splitting your attention, you don't get splitting your attention, you don't get splitting your attention, you don't get all of your you don't get the escape all of your you don't get the escape all of your you don't get the escape velocity on that one particular velocity on that one particular velocity on that one particular » brand or product because you've » brand or product because you've » brand or product because you've split all your energy now. And so, so, split all your energy now. And so, so, split all your energy now. And so, so, you know, I have a lot of things that you know, I have a lot of things that you know, I have a lot of things that I've done that have been, you know, that I've done that have been, you know, that I've done that have been, you know, that I thought were going to be home runs I thought were going to be home runs I thought were going to be home runs that were maybe just base hits, you that were maybe just base hits, you that were maybe just base hits, you know, and or maybe struck out know, and or maybe struck out know, and or maybe struck out completely. I thought this one was going completely. I thought this one was going completely. I thought this one was going to be the next best thing and it and it to be the next best thing and it and it to be the next best thing and it and it didn't work at all. And I've I've failed didn't work at all. And I've I've failed didn't work at all. And I've I've failed a lot. And I think for me, you know, uh, a lot. And I think for me, you know, uh, a lot. And I think for me, you know, uh, in retrospect, in retrospect, in retrospect, I know it's cliche like we don't fail, I know it's cliche like we don't fail, I know it's cliche like we don't fail, we learn, but all of those were lessons. we learn, but all of those were lessons. we learn, but all of those were lessons. And even sometimes you don't realize And even sometimes you don't realize And even sometimes you don't realize that even if it didn't if even if you that even if it didn't if even if you that even if it didn't if even if you didn't take off like you wanted to or didn't take off like you wanted to or didn't take off like you wanted to or the product wasn't as accepted as it the product wasn't as accepted as it the product wasn't as accepted as it wasn't a big hit, you know, getting on wasn't a big hit, you know, getting on wasn't a big hit, you know, getting on base is a victory. You know, staying in base is a victory. You know, staying in base is a victory. You know, staying in business is a victory. Surviving to the business is a victory. Surviving to the business is a victory. Surviving to the next round is a victory. Dealing with next round is a victory. Dealing with next round is a victory. Dealing with the ups and downs of the economy is a the ups and downs of the economy is a the ups and downs of the economy is a victory. So, um, I've kind of come to victory. So, um, I've kind of come to victory. So, um, I've kind of come to take the good with the bad and, uh, you take the good with the bad and, uh, you take the good with the bad and, uh, you know, just keep pushing forward. know, just keep pushing forward. know, just keep pushing forward. » Uh, explain how American Pet works, the » Uh, explain how American Pet works, the » Uh, explain how American Pet works, the business model, how does it work? business model, how does it work? business model, how does it work? » Yeah. So, at American Pet Works, we do » Yeah. So, at American Pet Works, we do » Yeah. So, at American Pet Works, we do three different things. So, we still do three different things. So, we still do three different things. So, we still do manufacturing. We do manufacturing for, manufacturing. We do manufacturing for, manufacturing. We do manufacturing for, you know, large companies, um, you know, you know, large companies, um, you know, you know, large companies, um, you know, companies that want to produce product companies that want to produce product companies that want to produce product in the United States for pet for pet in the United States for pet for pet in the United States for pet for pet products. Mostly, it's cut and sew. Um, products. Mostly, it's cut and sew. Um, products. Mostly, it's cut and sew. Um, we have a partner that does our we have a partner that does our we have a partner that does our manufacturing uh, on the east coast. manufacturing uh, on the east coast. manufacturing uh, on the east coast. It's so once again going back to you It's so once again going back to you It's so once again going back to you know finding the people that can that know finding the people that can that know finding the people that can that are that's their natural proclivity and are that's their natural proclivity and are that's their natural proclivity and they can do that really well and allow they can do that really well and allow they can do that really well and allow you the freedom to be able to do what you the freedom to be able to do what you the freedom to be able to do what you do really well. So manufacturing is you do really well. So manufacturing is you do really well. So manufacturing is part of it. Um we spend a lot of our part of it. Um we spend a lot of our part of it. Um we spend a lot of our time working with companies like uh time working with companies like uh time working with companies like uh hotel companies for example and we do uh hotel companies for example and we do uh hotel companies for example and we do uh hospitality kits for pets and so if you hospitality kits for pets and so if you hospitality kits for pets and so if you have if you have you know if you're the have if you have you know if you're the have if you have you know if you're the if you're a Marriott an Omni uh you know if you're a Marriott an Omni uh you know if you're a Marriott an Omni uh you know if you're any one of these big hotel if you're any one of these big hotel if you're any one of these big hotel chains you know being having a pet chains you know being having a pet chains you know being having a pet friendly hotel is incredibly important friendly hotel is incredibly important friendly hotel is incredibly important um nowadays you know about 10 years ago um nowadays you know about 10 years ago um nowadays you know about 10 years ago it was 30% of hotels allowed pets now it was 30% of hotels allowed pets now it was 30% of hotels allowed pets now it's about 75%. Jeez. it's about 75%. Jeez. it's about 75%. Jeez. » And so, uh, you know, you'll see people » And so, uh, you know, you'll see people » And so, uh, you know, you'll see people walking around with their pets all the walking around with their pets all the walking around with their pets all the time. They're part of the family. time. They're part of the family. time. They're part of the family. They're part of they're part of the They're part of they're part of the They're part of they're part of the family vacation now. And so, uh, making family vacation now. And so, uh, making family vacation now. And so, uh, making sure that they're feeling welcomed and sure that they're feeling welcomed and sure that they're feeling welcomed and we're creating kind of a unique touch we're creating kind of a unique touch we're creating kind of a unique touch point is really what we do. So, there's point is really what we do. So, there's point is really what we do. So, there's other companies out there that sell other companies out there that sell other companies out there that sell promotional products or do what we call promotional products or do what we call promotional products or do what we call label slaps. What we do is we find label slaps. What we do is we find label slaps. What we do is we find unique ways to tie the brand in to the unique ways to tie the brand in to the unique ways to tie the brand in to the customer uh to their pet that really customer uh to their pet that really customer uh to their pet that really kind of uh you know uh gives them an kind of uh you know uh gives them an kind of uh you know uh gives them an increased kind of bond with the with the increased kind of bond with the with the increased kind of bond with the with the hotel themselves. the hotel themselves. the hotel themselves. » Literally like a care bag or something. » Literally like a care bag or something. » Literally like a care bag or something. » It's usually like a dog bed uh some » It's usually like a dog bed uh some » It's usually like a dog bed uh some treats, you know, like for example, treats, you know, like for example, treats, you know, like for example, Double Tree does uh you know, they do Double Tree does uh you know, they do Double Tree does uh you know, they do the warm cookie. If you've ever stayed the warm cookie. If you've ever stayed the warm cookie. If you've ever stayed at a Double Tree, they have these really at a Double Tree, they have these really at a Double Tree, they have these really good cookies that are like always baking good cookies that are like always baking good cookies that are like always baking and you check in and they give you these and you check in and they give you these and you check in and they give you these cookies and I thought it was a cookie. cookies and I thought it was a cookie. cookies and I thought it was a cookie. What the heck? tell you have one. It's What the heck? tell you have one. It's What the heck? tell you have one. It's really good. So, we did like some cookie really good. So, we did like some cookie really good. So, we did like some cookie treats for dogs for this particular treats for dogs for this particular treats for dogs for this particular company. So, that is like a nice way company. So, that is like a nice way company. So, that is like a nice way that we tie in a touch point. Um, but that we tie in a touch point. Um, but that we tie in a touch point. Um, but basically helping delight their basically helping delight their basically helping delight their customers, making sure that their customers, making sure that their customers, making sure that their » their pets are part of the picture and » their pets are part of the picture and » their pets are part of the picture and they're accommodated is where we really they're accommodated is where we really they're accommodated is where we really focus on. And it's not just label slaps, focus on. And it's not just label slaps, focus on. And it's not just label slaps, it's creating unique experiences. So, it's creating unique experiences. So, it's creating unique experiences. So, that's the second thing we do. Um and we that's the second thing we do. Um and we that's the second thing we do. Um and we work with a variety of hotels and we work with a variety of hotels and we work with a variety of hotels and we produce product uh you know in our produce product uh you know in our produce product uh you know in our manufacturing for companies like manufacturing for companies like manufacturing for companies like Wayfair, Gunner Kennels, Zumemedica, Wayfair, Gunner Kennels, Zumemedica, Wayfair, Gunner Kennels, Zumemedica, Airststream. Uh on the hotel side, we Airststream. Uh on the hotel side, we Airststream. Uh on the hotel side, we work with companies like Marriott, Omni, work with companies like Marriott, Omni, work with companies like Marriott, Omni, um Hilton, and then uh and then really um Hilton, and then uh and then really um Hilton, and then uh and then really where I spend a lot of my time is where I spend a lot of my time is where I spend a lot of my time is working with early stage founders, working with early stage founders, working with early stage founders, helping early stage pet founders figure helping early stage pet founders figure helping early stage pet founders figure out how to build the product the right out how to build the product the right out how to build the product the right way, how to source the product the right way, how to source the product the right way, how to source the product the right way, and launch the product the right way, and launch the product the right way, and launch the product the right way. And that's that's through, you way. And that's that's through, you way. And that's that's through, you know, the market DNA approach that we know, the market DNA approach that we know, the market DNA approach that we already discussed. But it's also already discussed. But it's also already discussed. But it's also something that's really important for us something that's really important for us something that's really important for us is something called DFM, design for is something called DFM, design for is something called DFM, design for manufacturing. And it is exactly what it manufacturing. And it is exactly what it manufacturing. And it is exactly what it sounds like, but it's something that sounds like, but it's something that sounds like, but it's something that most people miss. Often times, if you're most people miss. Often times, if you're most people miss. Often times, if you're looking to build a product, you know, looking to build a product, you know, looking to build a product, you know, you can hire somebody on Upwork or you can hire somebody on Upwork or you can hire somebody on Upwork or you can hire, you know, you can hire an can hire, you know, you can hire an can hire, you know, you can hire an industrial design firm and they can make industrial design firm and they can make industrial design firm and they can make even like AI now, you can create some even like AI now, you can create some even like AI now, you can create some amazing 3D renderings and they say this amazing 3D renderings and they say this amazing 3D renderings and they say this is design, but design is a lot more than is design, but design is a lot more than is design, but design is a lot more than that. And you know, designing to have a that. And you know, designing to have a that. And you know, designing to have a product actually made means bringing in product actually made means bringing in product actually made means bringing in factory partners into the feedback loop. factory partners into the feedback loop. factory partners into the feedback loop. Making sure that they understand, you Making sure that they understand, you Making sure that they understand, you know, that this is what the product know, that this is what the product know, that this is what the product needs to be made out of. This is what needs to be made out of. This is what needs to be made out of. This is what the supply chain is around them. You the supply chain is around them. You the supply chain is around them. You know, not all fabric stretches the same. know, not all fabric stretches the same. know, not all fabric stretches the same. Not all foam responds the same. Not all foam responds the same. Not all foam responds the same. Different products look differently. And Different products look differently. And Different products look differently. And and so a lot of people design products and so a lot of people design products and so a lot of people design products that never get made or when it does get that never get made or when it does get that never get made or when it does get made, it ends up looking nothing like made, it ends up looking nothing like made, it ends up looking nothing like what the original design was. And so what the original design was. And so what the original design was. And so really what we bring to the table for really what we bring to the table for really what we bring to the table for early stage founders is building the early stage founders is building the early stage founders is building the right framework right framework right framework uh taking them through the right process uh taking them through the right process uh taking them through the right process and then the right network. So who are and then the right network. So who are and then the right network. So who are we going to be building this with? Um we going to be building this with? Um we going to be building this with? Um you know that's one of the number one you know that's one of the number one you know that's one of the number one things is like who do I trust? Who can things is like who do I trust? Who can things is like who do I trust? Who can make this? Who's going to steal my idea? make this? Who's going to steal my idea? make this? Who's going to steal my idea? We kind of mitigate all that by in a We kind of mitigate all that by in a We kind of mitigate all that by in a very affordable way putting them into very affordable way putting them into very affordable way putting them into the right factory, someone that they can the right factory, someone that they can the right factory, someone that they can trust. You can piggy back on our trust. You can piggy back on our trust. You can piggy back on our relationships with the factories and you relationships with the factories and you relationships with the factories and you can get the best price possible. Uh, and can get the best price possible. Uh, and can get the best price possible. Uh, and we go so far to do all of the factory we go so far to do all of the factory we go so far to do all of the factory negotiation. We get the price down. We negotiation. We get the price down. We negotiation. We get the price down. We get theQs down. And we try to provide get theQs down. And we try to provide get theQs down. And we try to provide the most affordable on-ramp into the pet the most affordable on-ramp into the pet the most affordable on-ramp into the pet industry for anybody with the least industry for anybody with the least industry for anybody with the least amount of risk and the least amount of amount of risk and the least amount of amount of risk and the least amount of money invested. money invested. money invested. » Is a big issue at the startup phase, » Is a big issue at the startup phase, » Is a big issue at the startup phase, too. The minimum order quantity. Uh, too. The minimum order quantity. Uh, too. The minimum order quantity. Uh, especially if you go offshore, right? especially if you go offshore, right? especially if you go offshore, right? You're talking you need to do a full You're talking you need to do a full You're talking you need to do a full container. It doesn't make sense. Like container. It doesn't make sense. Like container. It doesn't make sense. Like you're not going to see or a shared you're not going to see or a shared you're not going to see or a shared container or something like that. Um, container or something like that. Um, container or something like that. Um, but finding like just having that but finding like just having that but finding like just having that resource if you can find a place where resource if you can find a place where resource if you can find a place where they're like everybody else is requires they're like everybody else is requires they're like everybody else is requires 50,000 of these units your first order 50,000 of these units your first order 50,000 of these units your first order and you say we found a guy or a company and you say we found a guy or a company and you say we found a guy or a company that can do 10,000 like that alone is that can do 10,000 like that alone is that can do 10,000 like that alone is worth gold man. worth gold man. worth gold man. » Yeah. I mean, and I look, I've been the » Yeah. I mean, and I look, I've been the » Yeah. I mean, and I look, I've been the one of the only proponents of made in one of the only proponents of made in one of the only proponents of made in America stuff from the pet industry for America stuff from the pet industry for America stuff from the pet industry for many years, and I've fought that battle many years, and I've fought that battle many years, and I've fought that battle for many years. And the reality is is for many years. And the reality is is for many years. And the reality is is that not everything can be made here, that not everything can be made here, that not everything can be made here, you know. Um, and for early stage you know. Um, and for early stage you know. Um, and for early stage founders, more often than not, it founders, more often than not, it founders, more often than not, it probably shouldn't be made here. And the probably shouldn't be made here. And the probably shouldn't be made here. And the reason I say that is because, uh, one of reason I say that is because, uh, one of reason I say that is because, uh, one of the only levers American manufacturers the only levers American manufacturers the only levers American manufacturers have to pull in order to be have to pull in order to be have to pull in order to be competitively priced is volume, right? competitively priced is volume, right? competitively priced is volume, right? And volume is one of the levers that And volume is one of the levers that And volume is one of the levers that early stage founders shouldn't be early stage founders shouldn't be early stage founders shouldn't be touching, right? You you got to nail it touching, right? You you got to nail it touching, right? You you got to nail it before you scale it. You don't want to before you scale it. You don't want to before you scale it. You don't want to just uh buy a bunch of these things and just uh buy a bunch of these things and just uh buy a bunch of these things and have them sitting around your living have them sitting around your living have them sitting around your living room or, you know, sitting in the room or, you know, sitting in the room or, you know, sitting in the garage. You you got to start garage. You you got to start garage. You you got to start somewhere, validate it, and then go from somewhere, validate it, and then go from somewhere, validate it, and then go from there. And the factories that we work there. And the factories that we work there. And the factories that we work with, I mean, they make products often with, I mean, they make products often with, I mean, they make products often times in, you know, minimum order times in, you know, minimum order times in, you know, minimum order quantities and hundreds when we would quantities and hundreds when we would quantities and hundreds when we would have to make them in thousands. And the have to make them in thousands. And the have to make them in thousands. And the price per unit is just so cost-effective price per unit is just so cost-effective price per unit is just so cost-effective that even with tariffs and all the other that even with tariffs and all the other that even with tariffs and all the other scary stuff that people think about um scary stuff that people think about um scary stuff that people think about um it really it's it's just a no-brainer. it really it's it's just a no-brainer. it really it's it's just a no-brainer. Um and you know the last thing is people Um and you know the last thing is people Um and you know the last thing is people are worried about quality. You know with are worried about quality. You know with are worried about quality. You know with our framework we really focus on design. our framework we really focus on design. our framework we really focus on design. Pillar design documentations are Pillar design documentations are Pillar design documentations are paramount because with pillar design you paramount because with pillar design you paramount because with pillar design you can hold the factory to the design. This can hold the factory to the design. This can hold the factory to the design. This is exactly what we want. Uh, an example is exactly what we want. Uh, an example is exactly what we want. Uh, an example I like to use is, you know, if you tell I like to use is, you know, if you tell I like to use is, you know, if you tell the factory you want, uh, let's just the factory you want, uh, let's just the factory you want, uh, let's just say, uh, you know, a decent size zipper say, uh, you know, a decent size zipper say, uh, you know, a decent size zipper on the bottom of a dog bed that goes on the bottom of a dog bed that goes on the bottom of a dog bed that goes around the bottom and is like a navy around the bottom and is like a navy around the bottom and is like a navy blue color. They're going to put the blue color. They're going to put the blue color. They're going to put the cheapest, crappiest cheapest, crappiest cheapest, crappiest » dark blue zipper on that sucker that » dark blue zipper on that sucker that » dark blue zipper on that sucker that they can because they're not optimizing they can because they're not optimizing they can because they're not optimizing for your customer experience. They're for your customer experience. They're for your customer experience. They're not optimizing for your profit. They're not optimizing for your profit. They're not optimizing for your profit. They're optimizing for their profit. And that's optimizing for their profit. And that's optimizing for their profit. And that's where we help. So, like if you're where we help. So, like if you're where we help. So, like if you're working with us and you're working with working with us and you're working with working with us and you're working with the factory that we work with, we're the factory that we work with, we're the factory that we work with, we're going to say it's a number seven coil going to say it's a number seven coil going to say it's a number seven coil zipper spring-loaded YKK, it's navy blue zipper spring-loaded YKK, it's navy blue zipper spring-loaded YKK, it's navy blue in this exact band zone and you're going in this exact band zone and you're going in this exact band zone and you're going to deliver that to the factory. And if to deliver that to the factory. And if to deliver that to the factory. And if they're a reputable factory and you have they're a reputable factory and you have they're a reputable factory and you have an existing relationship with them, an existing relationship with them, an existing relationship with them, they're going to deliver on the specs they're going to deliver on the specs they're going to deliver on the specs that you make sure that you articulated that you make sure that you articulated that you make sure that you articulated clearly. And so that's why, you know, clearly. And so that's why, you know, clearly. And so that's why, you know, just like this conversation, everything just like this conversation, everything just like this conversation, everything goes back to design. Making sure you goes back to design. Making sure you goes back to design. Making sure you have what you need in order to be have what you need in order to be have what you need in order to be successful, setting the right successful, setting the right successful, setting the right expectations early. I think that uh that expectations early. I think that uh that expectations early. I think that uh that eliminates a lot of the challenges that eliminates a lot of the challenges that eliminates a lot of the challenges that people have in their head about getting people have in their head about getting people have in their head about getting ripped off or the product not showing up ripped off or the product not showing up ripped off or the product not showing up right. It's really just about building right. It's really just about building right. It's really just about building it the right way with the right people. it the right way with the right people. it the right way with the right people. » I can testify ordering some things on » I can testify ordering some things on » I can testify ordering some things on Alibaba, it did not look like it did in Alibaba, it did not look like it did in Alibaba, it did not look like it did in the photo when it showed up to the place the photo when it showed up to the place the photo when it showed up to the place of business. of business. of business. » You got to be careful story as old as » You got to be careful story as old as » You got to be careful story as old as the wind, the wind, the wind, » right? No kidding. Uh talk about » right? No kidding. Uh talk about » right? No kidding. Uh talk about Americanmade and we talked about this a Americanmade and we talked about this a Americanmade and we talked about this a lot. uh kind of in the same boat at some lot. uh kind of in the same boat at some lot. uh kind of in the same boat at some point thinking that was going to be point thinking that was going to be point thinking that was going to be the big lever. COVID, it was a powerful the big lever. COVID, it was a powerful the big lever. COVID, it was a powerful lever, right? Because no one else could lever, right? Because no one else could lever, right? Because no one else could get product, right? get product, right? get product, right? » And ships weren't moving or they were » And ships weren't moving or they were » And ships weren't moving or they were full or they said they said the full or they said they said the full or they said they said the ships were full. That was kind of a ships were full. That was kind of a ships were full. That was kind of a whole conspiracy. Um but we we found I'm whole conspiracy. Um but we we found I'm whole conspiracy. Um but we we found I'm curious your take. We found the curious your take. We found the curious your take. We found the Americanmade thing was a marketing Americanmade thing was a marketing Americanmade thing was a marketing opportunity that didn't seem to move the opportunity that didn't seem to move the opportunity that didn't seem to move the needle with at a certain price needle with at a certain price needle with at a certain price difference that made sense. Right. So, difference that made sense. Right. So, difference that made sense. Right. So, for example, would be, hey, you can buy for example, would be, hey, you can buy for example, would be, hey, you can buy this product for $100, right? Or you can this product for $100, right? Or you can this product for $100, right? Or you can buy this product for $180 and it's made buy this product for $180 and it's made buy this product for $180 and it's made in America. in America. in America. I mean, majority [snorts] of the time, I mean, majority [snorts] of the time, I mean, majority [snorts] of the time, they still bought the $100 product. they still bought the $100 product. they still bought the $100 product. Like, Like, Like, » I would say even if it's $110, they're » I would say even if it's $110, they're » I would say even if it's $110, they're usually going to buy it. And I think if usually going to buy it. And I think if usually going to buy it. And I think if you were to take like a Family Feud you were to take like a Family Feud you were to take like a Family Feud style poll, and this is just my opinion style poll, and this is just my opinion style poll, and this is just my opinion based on years in this space, based on years in this space, based on years in this space, » but if you were to take a Family Feud » but if you were to take a Family Feud » but if you were to take a Family Feud style poll, style poll, style poll, » you're going to hear 90 90 out of 100 » you're going to hear 90 90 out of 100 » you're going to hear 90 90 out of 100 people or 95 out of 100 people are going people or 95 out of 100 people are going people or 95 out of 100 people are going to tell you that made in the USA to tell you that made in the USA to tell you that made in the USA matters. and they're going to spend more matters. and they're going to spend more matters. and they're going to spend more money on it. But if you go look at the money on it. But if you go look at the money on it. But if you go look at the consumer behavior and you go look where consumer behavior and you go look where consumer behavior and you go look where they spend their dollars, it doesn't map they spend their dollars, it doesn't map they spend their dollars, it doesn't map up. And um that's kind of a harsh truth. up. And um that's kind of a harsh truth. up. And um that's kind of a harsh truth. And » people will tell you they care » people will tell you they care » people will tell you they care about it, but where do their dollars go? about it, but where do their dollars go? about it, but where do their dollars go? And you often times people think that And you often times people think that And you often times people think that made in the USA is just a little bit made in the USA is just a little bit made in the USA is just a little bit more expensive. For some reason, you more expensive. For some reason, you more expensive. For some reason, you know, 20% keeps getting thrown around. know, 20% keeps getting thrown around. know, 20% keeps getting thrown around. It's usually not. It's usually, you It's usually not. It's usually, you It's usually not. It's usually, you know, it's some often times twice as know, it's some often times twice as know, it's some often times twice as expensive, three times as expensive, you expensive, three times as expensive, you expensive, three times as expensive, you know, and especially if you're talking know, and especially if you're talking know, and especially if you're talking about incorporating minimum order about incorporating minimum order about incorporating minimum order quantities and the inventory risk that quantities and the inventory risk that quantities and the inventory risk that people have to take in order just to get people have to take in order just to get people have to take in order just to get started, it just makes a lot more sense started, it just makes a lot more sense started, it just makes a lot more sense for early stage founders to start with a for early stage founders to start with a for early stage founders to start with a reputable company overseas. And I know reputable company overseas. And I know reputable company overseas. And I know that might even sound blasphemous for that might even sound blasphemous for that might even sound blasphemous for people who know me, but the reality is people who know me, but the reality is people who know me, but the reality is I'm here to help people win. I'm not I'm here to help people win. I'm not I'm here to help people win. I'm not here to to preach principles and here to to preach principles and here to to preach principles and uh you know stand on a soap box. I'm uh you know stand on a soap box. I'm uh you know stand on a soap box. I'm here to help people win. And if you are here to help people win. And if you are here to help people win. And if you are an early stage founder and you want to an early stage founder and you want to an early stage founder and you want to take the least amount of risk, you want take the least amount of risk, you want take the least amount of risk, you want to have the lowest MOQ, you want to have to have the lowest MOQ, you want to have to have the lowest MOQ, you want to have the lowest price and the best chance of the lowest price and the best chance of the lowest price and the best chance of success, more often than not, it needs success, more often than not, it needs success, more often than not, it needs to be made overseas these days. We just to be made overseas these days. We just to be made overseas these days. We just don't have the existing supply chains don't have the existing supply chains don't have the existing supply chains here anymore. We don't have the existing here anymore. We don't have the existing here anymore. We don't have the existing factories here anymore. And it's just factories here anymore. And it's just factories here anymore. And it's just not a a viable option. not a a viable option. not a a viable option. » Do you see that changing in the next » Do you see that changing in the next » Do you see that changing in the next decade? decade? decade? » You know, I'd hope so, but I don't. Uh » You know, I'd hope so, but I don't. Uh » You know, I'd hope so, but I don't. Uh may I think maybe the only the only kind may I think maybe the only the only kind may I think maybe the only the only kind of force multiplier that might make it of force multiplier that might make it of force multiplier that might make it change would be robotics. I think change would be robotics. I think change would be robotics. I think robotics are going to bring a really robotics are going to bring a really robotics are going to bring a really interesting component cuz usually no interesting component cuz usually no interesting component cuz usually no matter what happens and uh you know I've matter what happens and uh you know I've matter what happens and uh you know I've been kind of on the forefront of the been kind of on the forefront of the been kind of on the forefront of the onshoring efforts uh I get a lot of onshoring efforts uh I get a lot of onshoring efforts uh I get a lot of phone calls wanting to onshore their phone calls wanting to onshore their phone calls wanting to onshore their products. Um but it very rarely ever products. Um but it very rarely ever products. Um but it very rarely ever happens and the reason is is because happens and the reason is is because happens and the reason is is because margin price uh they don't we don't have margin price uh they don't we don't have margin price uh they don't we don't have the ability to produce the product. we the ability to produce the product. we the ability to produce the product. we don't have the supply chains like I said don't have the supply chains like I said don't have the supply chains like I said around here in order to produce the around here in order to produce the around here in order to produce the product the way it needs to be made you product the way it needs to be made you product the way it needs to be made you know um those are all gone and uh so you know um those are all gone and uh so you know um those are all gone and uh so you know when it comes to when it comes to know when it comes to when it comes to know when it comes to when it comes to made in the USA maybe some of these made in the USA maybe some of these made in the USA maybe some of these products will come back but it really products will come back but it really products will come back but it really does follow the cost of labor you know does follow the cost of labor you know does follow the cost of labor you know and that's why things are being made in and that's why things are being made in and that's why things are being made in in India Mexico Dominican Republic I in India Mexico Dominican Republic I in India Mexico Dominican Republic I will say though you know when I say will say though you know when I say will say though you know when I say making things overseas that doesn't making things overseas that doesn't making things overseas that doesn't necessarily mean China um China is uh necessarily mean China um China is uh necessarily mean China um China is uh great at a lot of what they do and great at a lot of what they do and great at a lot of what they do and they're very responsive. I have uh they're very responsive. I have uh they're very responsive. I have uh partners that I work with in China that partners that I work with in China that partners that I work with in China that my team works with that do a very good my team works with that do a very good my team works with that do a very good job. Um but there's other places job. Um but there's other places job. Um but there's other places too. So we work with a a certified too. So we work with a a certified too. So we work with a a certified factory network we built. So there's 11 factory network we built. So there's 11 factory network we built. So there's 11 factories. If you were to come and bring factories. If you were to come and bring factories. If you were to come and bring your product to us and it's not made in your product to us and it's not made in your product to us and it's not made in our own facility, there's another our own facility, there's another our own facility, there's another facility in Florida we work with, facility in Florida we work with, facility in Florida we work with, another facility in Mexico we work with, another facility in Mexico we work with, another facility in Mexico we work with, and then we call these our sister and then we call these our sister and then we call these our sister factories. So there's uh several in factories. So there's uh several in factories. So there's uh several in Vietnam, one in Cambodia, a couple in Vietnam, one in Cambodia, a couple in Vietnam, one in Cambodia, a couple in the Philippines, and also and then the Philippines, and also and then the Philippines, and also and then the rest are going to be in China. So China rest are going to be in China. So China rest are going to be in China. So China is not the only place to get products is not the only place to get products is not the only place to get products made these days. You can get products made these days. You can get products made these days. You can get products made in a lot of different places in a made in a lot of different places in a made in a lot of different places in a lot of different ways. lot of different ways. lot of different ways. » I I've heard uh card game manufacturing. » I I've heard uh card game manufacturing. » I I've heard uh card game manufacturing. I had a gal on that came up with the I had a gal on that came up with the I had a gal on that came up with the dueling llamas card game. You've dueling llamas card game. You've dueling llamas card game. You've probably seen that. probably seen that. probably seen that. » Uh that Tyler did all the design for and » Uh that Tyler did all the design for and » Uh that Tyler did all the design for and they met I went to New York City with they met I went to New York City with they met I went to New York City with them to the big game fair or whatever. I them to the big game fair or whatever. I them to the big game fair or whatever. I can't even toy fair. went to Toyfy Fair can't even toy fair. went to Toyfy Fair can't even toy fair. went to Toyfy Fair and we had a booth there and I just went and we had a booth there and I just went and we had a booth there and I just went to help him help him out. Uh not to help him help him out. Uh not to help him help him out. Uh not associated with it anymore, but uh we associated with it anymore, but uh we associated with it anymore, but uh we met a manufacturer in Mexico and it was met a manufacturer in Mexico and it was met a manufacturer in Mexico and it was pretty dang close. Like it was very pretty dang close. Like it was very pretty dang close. Like it was very comparable to China. The turnaround time comparable to China. The turnaround time comparable to China. The turnaround time was way better. But like card games like was way better. But like card games like was way better. But like card games like the gaming industry, game board industry the gaming industry, game board industry the gaming industry, game board industry is hard to get out of China. Like it's is hard to get out of China. Like it's is hard to get out of China. Like it's hard to find any place. The problem was hard to find any place. The problem was hard to find any place. The problem was a specific design part of it was the a specific design part of it was the a specific design part of it was the tongue. This this game is like a box and tongue. This this game is like a box and tongue. This this game is like a box and there's a tongue loop that comes out of there's a tongue loop that comes out of there's a tongue loop that comes out of it. They cannot replicate that in their it. They cannot replicate that in their it. They cannot replicate that in their factory tools in Mexico. They could do factory tools in Mexico. They could do factory tools in Mexico. They could do everything else, but they're like, "We everything else, but they're like, "We everything else, but they're like, "We can't do the tongue and so they had to can't do the tongue and so they had to can't do the tongue and so they had to keep it in China." But it was like crazy keep it in China." But it was like crazy keep it in China." But it was like crazy that one little thing. that one little thing. that one little thing. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Kind of botched the whole deal for them. » Kind of botched the whole deal for them. » Kind of botched the whole deal for them. » Well, and a lot of it has to do with » Well, and a lot of it has to do with » Well, and a lot of it has to do with capabilities, too. I mean like there's a capabilities, too. I mean like there's a capabilities, too. I mean like there's a lot of factories and I did a very big lot of factories and I did a very big lot of factories and I did a very big project in India for a very large project in India for a very large project in India for a very large company uh last year and we couldn't I company uh last year and we couldn't I company uh last year and we couldn't I mean this is a a multi- potentially mean this is a a multi- potentially mean this is a a multi- potentially multi-million dollar deal and we could multi-million dollar deal and we could multi-million dollar deal and we could not get delivery from these factories in not get delivery from these factories in not get delivery from these factories in India and so it's like just because the India and so it's like just because the India and so it's like just because the infrastructure they just don't deliver infrastructure they just don't deliver infrastructure they just don't deliver » as in the as in the quality is » as in the as in the quality is » as in the as in the quality is inconsistent the communication was inconsistent the communication was inconsistent the communication was inconsistent you know it yeah in a inconsistent you know it yeah in a inconsistent you know it yeah in a variety of different ways it was just a variety of different ways it was just a variety of different ways it was just a poor experience and to have so much poor experience and to have so much poor experience and to have so much writing on someone else, you know, is writing on someone else, you know, is writing on someone else, you know, is really challenging. And so even, you really challenging. And so even, you really challenging. And so even, you know, it's not just about cost, it's know, it's not just about cost, it's know, it's not just about cost, it's about effectiveness and efficiency and about effectiveness and efficiency and about effectiveness and efficiency and um you know, the Chinese uh love it and um you know, the Chinese uh love it and um you know, the Chinese uh love it or hate it, they are highly efficient or hate it, they are highly efficient or hate it, they are highly efficient and they are highly responsive and if and they are highly responsive and if and they are highly responsive and if you are working with the right group and you are working with the right group and you are working with the right group and the right people, then they can deliver the right people, then they can deliver the right people, then they can deliver the product the way it's supposed to be the product the way it's supposed to be the product the way it's supposed to be at the price it's supposed to be on at the price it's supposed to be on at the price it's supposed to be on time. Um but that's I can't say that time. Um but that's I can't say that time. Um but that's I can't say that about everybody. And so one of those, about everybody. And so one of those, about everybody. And so one of those, you know, working with these factory you know, working with these factory you know, working with these factory partners, it's really important to partners, it's really important to partners, it's really important to understand that like some of them, some understand that like some of them, some understand that like some of them, some of them will never make it into our of them will never make it into our of them will never make it into our certified factory partner program certified factory partner program certified factory partner program because they just won't respond fast because they just won't respond fast because they just won't respond fast enough or they won't turn a sample enough or they won't turn a sample enough or they won't turn a sample around quick enough or they try, you can around quick enough or they try, you can around quick enough or they try, you can see they try to make an extra $10 here, see they try to make an extra $10 here, see they try to make an extra $10 here, an extra $10 here at the at the behest an extra $10 here at the at the behest an extra $10 here at the at the behest of a multi-million dollar deal. You of a multi-million dollar deal. You of a multi-million dollar deal. You know, it's just like uh but you know, I know, it's just like uh but you know, I know, it's just like uh but you know, I do think finding the right people. do think finding the right people. do think finding the right people. There's good people that make product There's good people that make product There's good people that make product all over the world and uh there's all over the world and uh there's all over the world and uh there's bad people that make product all over bad people that make product all over bad people that make product all over the world too. So finding the right the world too. So finding the right the world too. So finding the right people to work with is really important people to work with is really important people to work with is really important and that's one of the risks that we take and that's one of the risks that we take and that's one of the risks that we take out of the equation for our clients and out of the equation for our clients and out of the equation for our clients and early stage founders that are wanting to early stage founders that are wanting to early stage founders that are wanting to build stuff. They don't know who to turn build stuff. They don't know who to turn build stuff. They don't know who to turn to. So we help them with that. to. So we help them with that. to. So we help them with that. » Talk about AI. In your 15 years of doing » Talk about AI. In your 15 years of doing » Talk about AI. In your 15 years of doing this, uh how much has AI transformed how this, uh how much has AI transformed how this, uh how much has AI transformed how you do what you do today? you do what you do today? you do what you do today? » Uh dramatically. Yeah, AI is incredibly » Uh dramatically. Yeah, AI is incredibly » Uh dramatically. Yeah, AI is incredibly important. Um, and I think that there important. Um, and I think that there important. Um, and I think that there's a huge negative sentiment there's a huge negative sentiment there's a huge negative sentiment towards it right now. Um, but I think towards it right now. Um, but I think towards it right now. Um, but I think that's also I think some of that some of that's also I think some of that some of that's also I think some of that some of the wins that come out of AI will start the wins that come out of AI will start the wins that come out of AI will start to balance that out, you know, and I I to balance that out, you know, and I I to balance that out, you know, and I I do think the medical advances, yeah, do think the medical advances, yeah, do think the medical advances, yeah, » you know, uh, the health » you know, uh, the health » you know, uh, the health benefits that are going to come from it, benefits that are going to come from it, benefits that are going to come from it, the society benefits that are going to the society benefits that are going to the society benefits that are going to come for it, we're not really seeing or come for it, we're not really seeing or come for it, we're not really seeing or speaking about yet. People are just speaking about yet. People are just speaking about yet. People are just using it to answer stupid questions and using it to answer stupid questions and using it to answer stupid questions and rewrite emails. But I think funny. Yeah, rewrite emails. But I think funny. Yeah, rewrite emails. But I think funny. Yeah, make funny images. But I think for the make funny images. But I think for the make funny images. But I think for the people that are that are deep, they people that are that are deep, they people that are that are deep, they understand what's coming. And I, you understand what's coming. And I, you understand what's coming. And I, you know, I don't want to sound like a a a a know, I don't want to sound like a a a a know, I don't want to sound like a a a a doomer, but um there is going to be a doomer, but um there is going to be a doomer, but um there is going to be a lot of disruption coming and people are lot of disruption coming and people are lot of disruption coming and people are going to lose their jobs. And it's going to lose their jobs. And it's going to lose their jobs. And it's coming from more people's jobs than they coming from more people's jobs than they coming from more people's jobs than they realize. And you know, you can train realize. And you know, you can train realize. And you know, you can train even a lot of jobs people think even a lot of jobs people think even a lot of jobs people think that are safe. You know, you can train a that are safe. You know, you can train a that are safe. You know, you can train a robot how to go into a house and fix a robot how to go into a house and fix a robot how to go into a house and fix a fix a sink. You can change you can fix a sink. You can change you can fix a sink. You can change you can train it a billion times in a virtual train it a billion times in a virtual train it a billion times in a virtual environment. So when the when the time environment. So when the when the time environment. So when the when the time does come to unleash it, it's going to does come to unleash it, it's going to does come to unleash it, it's going to be able to do all of that. And I don't be able to do all of that. And I don't be able to do all of that. And I don't think people are really recognizing think people are really recognizing think people are really recognizing that. that. that. » And so I think people are going to lose » And so I think people are going to lose » And so I think people are going to lose a lot of their a lot of their seats. And a lot of their a lot of their seats. And a lot of their a lot of their seats. And if you're if you have one skill set, if you're if you have one skill set, if you're if you have one skill set, then it's going to be a problem. And I then it's going to be a problem. And I then it's going to be a problem. And I see a lot of clients that come to us now see a lot of clients that come to us now see a lot of clients that come to us now uh see the writing on the wall. A lot of uh see the writing on the wall. A lot of uh see the writing on the wall. A lot of people have a corporate job. they're people have a corporate job. they're people have a corporate job. they're just wanting to build something for just wanting to build something for just wanting to build something for themselves. They're wanting to to themselves. They're wanting to to themselves. They're wanting to to insulate themselves from that. And I insulate themselves from that. And I insulate themselves from that. And I think something that's really important think something that's really important think something that's really important is, you know, seeing the writing on the is, you know, seeing the writing on the is, you know, seeing the writing on the wall and actually doing something, wall and actually doing something, wall and actually doing something, building something. I I mean, I believe building something. I I mean, I believe building something. I I mean, I believe the future is for those that are the future is for those that are the future is for those that are bold enough to build. And if you're bold enough to build. And if you're bold enough to build. And if you're bold enough to build, you will actually have enough to build, you will actually have enough to build, you will actually have something uh in the future, you know. something uh in the future, you know. something uh in the future, you know. So, an analogy I like to use is if you So, an analogy I like to use is if you So, an analogy I like to use is if you think about like an orchestra, yeah, think about like an orchestra, yeah, think about like an orchestra, yeah, there might not be trumpets anymore. Or there might not be trumpets anymore. Or there might not be trumpets anymore. Or if you play the flute, you might not if you play the flute, you might not if you play the flute, you might not have a place to sit, but if you're a have a place to sit, but if you're a have a place to sit, but if you're a conductor, you'll still be up there conductor, you'll still be up there conductor, you'll still be up there conducting. The only difference is conducting. The only difference is conducting. The only difference is you're digital now, and you have the you're digital now, and you have the you're digital now, and you have the ability to do all sorts of incredible ability to do all sorts of incredible ability to do all sorts of incredible things. You have versatility to do all things. You have versatility to do all things. You have versatility to do all sorts of incredible things. So, if you sorts of incredible things. So, if you sorts of incredible things. So, if you can be a conductor, I think that's the can be a conductor, I think that's the can be a conductor, I think that's the place to be. I think entrepreneurship is place to be. I think entrepreneurship is place to be. I think entrepreneurship is going to be incredibly exciting over the going to be incredibly exciting over the going to be incredibly exciting over the next several years. next several years. next several years. » Yeah, that's a great answer. I love that » Yeah, that's a great answer. I love that » Yeah, that's a great answer. I love that take. I think you'll see yeah more take. I think you'll see yeah more take. I think you'll see yeah more business more founders than ever before business more founders than ever before business more founders than ever before in the next decade. Completely agree. Uh in the next decade. Completely agree. Uh in the next decade. Completely agree. Uh I mean we see it just on the killer I mean we see it just on the killer I mean we see it just on the killer growth side because we help a lot of growth side because we help a lot of growth side because we help a lot of service based companies do marketing and service based companies do marketing and service based companies do marketing and people that are leaving the technology people that are leaving the technology people that are leaving the technology sector to start a plumbing company, sector to start a plumbing company, sector to start a plumbing company, right? Like they're getting into spaces right? Like they're getting into spaces right? Like they're getting into spaces that they think the disruption will be that they think the disruption will be that they think the disruption will be » still there potentially and eventually » still there potentially and eventually » still there potentially and eventually » maybe a little bit longer down the road » maybe a little bit longer down the road » maybe a little bit longer down the road » down the road. But also like someone's » down the road. But also like someone's » down the road. But also like someone's got to employ those robots and set up a got to employ those robots and set up a got to employ those robots and set up a system and then when they go directly system and then when they go directly system and then when they go directly into a home, there's going to be certain into a home, there's going to be certain into a home, there's going to be certain things that require permits that are things that require permits that are things that require permits that are still regulated. So like people that own still regulated. So like people that own still regulated. So like people that own businesses that do things that require businesses that do things that require businesses that do things that require permits that are federally and state and permits that are federally and state and permits that are federally and state and city regulated, I think they're they're city regulated, I think they're they're city regulated, I think they're they're going to be in a good spot even if going to be in a good spot even if going to be in a good spot even if robots are doing it because it robots are doing it because it robots are doing it because it technically they have to sign off on it. technically they have to sign off on it. technically they have to sign off on it. Right. Right. Right. » And I think the people that are making » And I think the people that are making » And I think the people that are making these moves now are ahead of the game these moves now are ahead of the game these moves now are ahead of the game and uh now is the time. And the writing and uh now is the time. And the writing and uh now is the time. And the writing is on the wall and you can either deny is on the wall and you can either deny is on the wall and you can either deny it and be overtaken by the wave or it and be overtaken by the wave or it and be overtaken by the wave or you can grab a surfboard and right now you can grab a surfboard and right now you can grab a surfboard and right now it is an incredible opportunity. You it is an incredible opportunity. You it is an incredible opportunity. You know um in our business you know we were know um in our business you know we were know um in our business you know we were doing manufacturing. We had 24 people doing manufacturing. We had 24 people doing manufacturing. We had 24 people working for us at one point in time. We working for us at one point in time. We working for us at one point in time. We had a very big building downtown. Um now had a very big building downtown. Um now had a very big building downtown. Um now you know we have about six people and you know we have about six people and you know we have about six people and most of them are on our design team. And most of them are on our design team. And most of them are on our design team. And you know, the e-commerce side of the you know, the e-commerce side of the you know, the e-commerce side of the business, you can do a lot of business, you can do a lot of business, you can do a lot of interesting things. Um, you know, not to interesting things. Um, you know, not to interesting things. Um, you know, not to say that humans aren't aren't necessary, say that humans aren't aren't necessary, say that humans aren't aren't necessary, but you can do a lot of interesting but you can do a lot of interesting but you can do a lot of interesting things uh as a one-man band even. Yeah. things uh as a one-man band even. Yeah. things uh as a one-man band even. Yeah. » And so, you know, I feel like this is a » And so, you know, I feel like this is a » And so, you know, I feel like this is a great opportunity for me because someone great opportunity for me because someone great opportunity for me because someone like me has the ability to to play music like me has the ability to to play music like me has the ability to to play music and I don't necessarily need to hire and I don't necessarily need to hire and I don't necessarily need to hire everybody in the orchestra now. everybody in the orchestra now. everybody in the orchestra now. » Yeah. Yeah. No, that's huge. Yeah. You » Yeah. Yeah. No, that's huge. Yeah. You » Yeah. Yeah. No, that's huge. Yeah. You talk about people producing music now. talk about people producing music now. talk about people producing music now. » Yeah. people to say that they're a Yeah. » Yeah. people to say that they're a Yeah. » Yeah. people to say that they're a Yeah. musician or actually doing and they're musician or actually doing and they're musician or actually doing and they're using AI to produce. using AI to produce. using AI to produce. » I have a buddy of mine named Stephen who » I have a buddy of mine named Stephen who » I have a buddy of mine named Stephen who comes out with new songs all the time. comes out with new songs all the time. comes out with new songs all the time. » Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. » Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. » Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He's doing rap songs about you probably He's doing rap songs about you probably He's doing rap songs about you probably like Buddy Rest rap songs with AI. Uh like Buddy Rest rap songs with AI. Uh like Buddy Rest rap songs with AI. Uh we've done a few of those here. Those we've done a few of those here. Those we've done a few of those here. Those are always funny. That I want that are always funny. That I want that are always funny. That I want that actually to be like a birthday actually to be like a birthday actually to be like a birthday tradition. Like on my friends birthdays tradition. Like on my friends birthdays tradition. Like on my friends birthdays I want to like make a rap song every I want to like make a rap song every I want to like make a rap song every year with AI. I think that'd be really year with AI. I think that'd be really year with AI. I think that'd be really cool. cool. cool. » My birthday's in June. So I'll be » My birthday's in June. So I'll be » My birthday's in June. So I'll be looking for that. looking for that. looking for that. » I'll start scheming. » I'll start scheming. » I'll start scheming. Uh so on the robotic side, I I do think Uh so on the robotic side, I I do think Uh so on the robotic side, I I do think that's an interesting point on the that's an interesting point on the that's an interesting point on the manufacturing uh the job side, but AI is obviously uh the job side, but AI is obviously uh the job side, but AI is obviously seems like it's farther ahead than seems like it's farther ahead than seems like it's farther ahead than robotics now. It's pretty obvious. And robotics now. It's pretty obvious. And robotics now. It's pretty obvious. And now when robotics catches up to AI, now when robotics catches up to AI, now when robotics catches up to AI, right? I mean, it's already has vision right? I mean, it's already has vision right? I mean, it's already has vision has the ability to look. I mean, I was has the ability to look. I mean, I was has the ability to look. I mean, I was in a camper with a friend and we in a camper with a friend and we in a camper with a friend and we couldn't figure out how to do his hot couldn't figure out how to do his hot couldn't figure out how to do his hot water heater, so I just turned on water heater, so I just turned on water heater, so I just turned on visual, right, and [clears throat] visual, right, and [clears throat] visual, right, and [clears throat] chatbt and started walking around and chatbt and started walking around and chatbt and started walking around and figured it out. It was it's got eyes on figured it out. It was it's got eyes on figured it out. It was it's got eyes on my device now, right? And so once I get my device now, right? And so once I get my device now, right? And so once I get legs and feet and hands, I do think it legs and feet and hands, I do think it legs and feet and hands, I do think it will come down to physical goods, right? will come down to physical goods, right? will come down to physical goods, right? Like let's go now we're getting like way Like let's go now we're getting like way Like let's go now we're getting like way far in the future, but right way far in the future, but right way far in the future, but right ultimately in what you're doing, I think ultimately in what you're doing, I think ultimately in what you're doing, I think it's going to be people who know how to it's going to be people who know how to it's going to be people who know how to sell things, right? That's going to be sell things, right? That's going to be sell things, right? That's going to be important forever. Like people want to important forever. Like people want to important forever. Like people want to talk to people about product and B2B talk to people about product and B2B talk to people about product and B2B specifically B2B, right? Like they want specifically B2B, right? Like they want specifically B2B, right? Like they want to deal with people. I think more so to deal with people. I think more so to deal with people. I think more so than ever there's gonna be a huge than ever there's gonna be a huge than ever there's gonna be a huge like renaissance of old school type of like renaissance of old school type of like renaissance of old school type of uh you know conversations, connections, uh you know conversations, connections, uh you know conversations, connections, networking for sure. I don't think that networking for sure. I don't think that networking for sure. I don't think that goes away. goes away. goes away. » Yeah, I don't either. And I think » Yeah, I don't either. And I think » Yeah, I don't either. And I think authentic content doesn't go away. I authentic content doesn't go away. I authentic content doesn't go away. I think actually the demand for that is think actually the demand for that is think actually the demand for that is going to change over time. I do think going to change over time. I do think going to change over time. I do think it's going to look really different over it's going to look really different over it's going to look really different over time if iPhones right at the rate time if iPhones right at the rate time if iPhones right at the rate everything's going. Maybe iPhones aren't everything's going. Maybe iPhones aren't everything's going. Maybe iPhones aren't what we think they are smartphones, what we think they are smartphones, what we think they are smartphones, right? Maybe the glasses do come into right? Maybe the glasses do come into right? Maybe the glasses do come into effect and people aren't pulling out a effect and people aren't pulling out a effect and people aren't pulling out a device all the time looking at it. Maybe device all the time looking at it. Maybe device all the time looking at it. Maybe they're getting a short form of they're getting a short form of they're getting a short form of everything on the planet from now on everything on the planet from now on everything on the planet from now on that's in their ear and visually that's in their ear and visually that's in their ear and visually experiencing the world. I think events experiencing the world. I think events experiencing the world. I think events uh people based stuff is going to grow uh people based stuff is going to grow uh people based stuff is going to grow actually. I think anybody that I think actually. I think anybody that I think actually. I think anybody that I think people will want to be with people more people will want to be with people more people will want to be with people more and there's going to be another and there's going to be another and there's going to be another and there is like a there's a resurg there is like a there's a resurg there is like a there's a resurg that demand has grown a lot and I that demand has grown a lot and I that demand has grown a lot and I think it'll continue growing. Um and think it'll continue growing. Um and think it'll continue growing. Um and then to your point the orchestra and then to your point the orchestra and then to your point the orchestra and problem solving I think you have to be problem solving I think you have to be problem solving I think you have to be good at solving problems and then good at solving problems and then good at solving problems and then physical goods aren't going away. You physical goods aren't going away. You physical goods aren't going away. You got the tour here. People buy physical got the tour here. People buy physical got the tour here. People buy physical books. I love physical books and if you books. I love physical books and if you books. I love physical books and if you have a physical goods like people still have a physical goods like people still have a physical goods like people still will want toys and they will still want will want toys and they will still want will want toys and they will still want to do things and hold things. So I think to do things and hold things. So I think to do things and hold things. So I think the professional services side of like the professional services side of like the professional services side of like that consulting relationship trust and that consulting relationship trust and that consulting relationship trust and like coming up with concepts solving like coming up with concepts solving like coming up with concepts solving problems and then being in physical problems and then being in physical problems and then being in physical goods like that's all still going goods like that's all still going goods like that's all still going to be here and there's a lot of to be here and there's a lot of to be here and there's a lot of opportunity in that right ultimately opportunity in that right ultimately opportunity in that right ultimately like » I mean and there's all these things that » I mean and there's all these things that » I mean and there's all these things that we don't know either that are going to we don't know either that are going to we don't know either that are going to be that are going to create new be that are going to create new be that are going to create new opportunities. um you know uh I don't opportunities. um you know uh I don't opportunities. um you know uh I don't think it's going to be as doom and gloom think it's going to be as doom and gloom think it's going to be as doom and gloom for people as a lot of people think but for people as a lot of people think but for people as a lot of people think but it might feel that way for a little bit it might feel that way for a little bit it might feel that way for a little bit right and I think that you know I once right and I think that you know I once right and I think that you know I once again I think some of the positive again I think some of the positive again I think some of the positive things that come out of this you know things that come out of this you know things that come out of this you know curing cancer you know all these curing cancer you know all these curing cancer you know all these different types of things that are I I different types of things that are I I different types of things that are I I believe are going to happen in the in believe are going to happen in the in believe are going to happen in the in the near future uh I think people are the near future uh I think people are the near future uh I think people are going to maybe kind of change how they going to maybe kind of change how they going to maybe kind of change how they look about it but I will say there's a look about it but I will say there's a look about it but I will say there's a different level and maybe it's that different level and maybe it's that different level and maybe it's that optimism that we have as entrepreneurs optimism that we have as entrepreneurs optimism that we have as entrepreneurs » there's a different level the people who » there's a different level the people who » there's a different level the people who entrepreneurs um feel a little bit entrepreneurs um feel a little bit entrepreneurs um feel a little bit different about this revolution I think different about this revolution I think different about this revolution I think and I think that you know uh preparing and I think that you know uh preparing and I think that you know uh preparing for it you know being ready for the for it you know being ready for the for it you know being ready for the opportunity and just diving in it can be opportunity and just diving in it can be opportunity and just diving in it can be really like intimidating and really like intimidating and really like intimidating and overwhelming and especially you know overwhelming and especially you know overwhelming and especially you know when you've got like multiple different when you've got like multiple different when you've got like multiple different cloud co-works running at the same time cloud co-works running at the same time cloud co-works running at the same time and there's all sorts of challenges but and there's all sorts of challenges but and there's all sorts of challenges but you know I would implore people if you know I would implore people if you know I would implore people if you if you want to thrive then you got to if you want to thrive then you got to if you want to thrive then you got to you got to do the work you got to kind you got to do the work you got to kind you got to do the work you got to kind of dive in and learn. Yeah. and uh of dive in and learn. Yeah. and uh of dive in and learn. Yeah. and uh now's the time. So if you have a growth now's the time. So if you have a growth now's the time. So if you have a growth mindset, I think this is an an amazing mindset, I think this is an an amazing mindset, I think this is an an amazing renaissance for the world. renaissance for the world. renaissance for the world. » If you don't have a growth mindset, I » If you don't have a growth mindset, I » If you don't have a growth mindset, I would suggest try to find it. And if you would suggest try to find it. And if you would suggest try to find it. And if you can't, then can't, then can't, then » or attach yourself to someone who does. » or attach yourself to someone who does. » or attach yourself to someone who does. » Yeah. Absolutely. » Yeah. Absolutely. » Yeah. Absolutely. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. Because I think, you know, there's » Yeah. Because I think, you know, there's » Yeah. Because I think, you know, there's going to be opportunities for people to going to be opportunities for people to going to be opportunities for people to say, "Hey, Trevor, I don't get any of say, "Hey, Trevor, I don't get any of say, "Hey, Trevor, I don't get any of this. I don't think this is going to go this. I don't think this is going to go this. I don't think this is going to go well. This is where I'm at." And well. This is where I'm at." And well. This is where I'm at." And there'll be visionaries that can find a there'll be visionaries that can find a there'll be visionaries that can find a place for people. Like that's how it's place for people. Like that's how it's place for people. Like that's how it's always worked, right? It's just going to always worked, right? It's just going to always worked, right? It's just going to look different. And they need to look different. And they need to look different. And they need to surround themselves with people that see surround themselves with people that see surround themselves with people that see it differently now instead of the it differently now instead of the it differently now instead of the traditional get that degree, go do that traditional get that degree, go do that traditional get that degree, go do that 8 to 5, especially white collar 8 to 5, especially white collar 8 to 5, especially white collar positions. That's like anybody who positions. That's like anybody who positions. That's like anybody who gathers information, distributes gathers information, distributes gathers information, distributes information, that's going away already. information, that's going away already. information, that's going away already. Thousands and thousands of layoffs are Thousands and thousands of layoffs are Thousands and thousands of layoffs are happening every quarter right now happening every quarter right now happening every quarter right now specifically in in that realm that AI is specifically in in that realm that AI is specifically in in that realm that AI is an obvious replacement. And I think of an obvious replacement. And I think of an obvious replacement. And I think of software engineering, right? That's kind software engineering, right? That's kind software engineering, right? That's kind of like how our whole economy has been of like how our whole economy has been of like how our whole economy has been built. Mhm. built. Mhm. built. Mhm. » Like our whole economy is kind of based » Like our whole economy is kind of based » Like our whole economy is kind of based on software. on software. on software. » Well, I'm a software engineer now. » Well, I'm a software engineer now. » Well, I'm a software engineer now. » Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And so » Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And so » Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And so these software engineers that are these software engineers that are these software engineers that are actually software engineers, um, sorry, actually software engineers, um, sorry, actually software engineers, um, sorry, you're not actual. So eventually it's you're not actual. So eventually it's you're not actual. So eventually it's » I can build some pretty cool software » I can build some pretty cool software » I can build some pretty cool software though. Be honest with you. though. Be honest with you. though. Be honest with you. » You can do the back end, the front end » You can do the back end, the front end » You can do the back end, the front end now. Like, and it's every month. It's now. Like, and it's every month. It's now. Like, and it's every month. It's like D. I mean, we're building like D. I mean, we're building like D. I mean, we're building internally. Norris and Brickley and internally. Norris and Brickley and internally. Norris and Brickley and Phil, they're building we're replacing Phil, they're building we're replacing Phil, they're building we're replacing regular SAS software, the subscription regular SAS software, the subscription regular SAS software, the subscription based stuff all the time now. like we're based stuff all the time now. like we're based stuff all the time now. like we're down to just a couple. down to just a couple. down to just a couple. » Yeah. If you own a if you own a software » Yeah. If you own a if you own a software » Yeah. If you own a if you own a software company, you had your day, right? And uh company, you had your day, right? And uh company, you had your day, right? And uh it's the future isn't looking bright and it's the future isn't looking bright and it's the future isn't looking bright and it's just kind of democratizing the and it's just kind of democratizing the and it's just kind of democratizing the ability to create anything. You know, ability to create anything. You know, ability to create anything. You know, I've always wanted to create I've always wanted to create I've always wanted to create » uh I had this idea for an app for, you » uh I had this idea for an app for, you » uh I had this idea for an app for, you know, my kids bring all this content know, my kids bring all this content know, my kids bring all this content home from school all the time. It's home from school all the time. It's home from school all the time. It's like, what do you do with it? like, what do you do with it? like, what do you do with it? » Oh, right. And so, I've always had this » Oh, right. And so, I've always had this » Oh, right. And so, I've always had this idea for an app. I didn't have the time, idea for an app. I didn't have the time, idea for an app. I didn't have the time, the money, the energy to go build an app the money, the energy to go build an app the money, the energy to go build an app and take it to the market, but I built and take it to the market, but I built and take it to the market, but I built it for me. And now I I have, you know, I it for me. And now I I have, you know, I it for me. And now I I have, you know, I have all of their all of their have all of their all of their have all of their all of their schoolwork, all of their tests, and all schoolwork, all of their tests, and all schoolwork, all of their tests, and all of their artwork. All is memorialized in of their artwork. All is memorialized in of their artwork. All is memorialized in this piece of software that I bought or this piece of software that I bought or this piece of software that I bought or that I built. that I built. that I built. » And so, um, yeah, I think it's a really » And so, um, yeah, I think it's a really » And so, um, yeah, I think it's a really interesting future when you think about interesting future when you think about interesting future when you think about the possibilities are only limited the possibilities are only limited the possibilities are only limited by our imagination. And and for some by our imagination. And and for some by our imagination. And and for some that's scary, but I think for others, I that's scary, but I think for others, I that's scary, but I think for others, I think it it presents a really cool think it it presents a really cool think it it presents a really cool opportunity. opportunity. opportunity. » Yeah. from a visionary creative side » Yeah. from a visionary creative side » Yeah. from a visionary creative side when you're the builder and you rely on when you're the builder and you rely on when you're the builder and you rely on people to provide vision like that. people to provide vision like that. people to provide vision like that. That's who needs a partner up too, That's who needs a partner up too, That's who needs a partner up too, right? Because I also should not be right? Because I also should not be right? Because I also should not be building. I've I've messed around and building. I've I've messed around and building. I've I've messed around and made a couple little apps, but I'm not made a couple little apps, but I'm not made a couple little apps, but I'm not that guy ultimately like I'm not a that guy ultimately like I'm not a that guy ultimately like I'm not a detail guy. So like I can like get to detail guy. So like I can like get to detail guy. So like I can like get to this point and then I'm like Tyler help this point and then I'm like Tyler help this point and then I'm like Tyler help like here's the concept. So I think like here's the concept. So I think like here's the concept. So I think there's going to be I think people get there's going to be I think people get there's going to be I think people get scared they can't be all of it. But you scared they can't be all of it. But you scared they can't be all of it. But you don't need to be all of it. like find don't need to be all of it. like find don't need to be all of it. like find partnership, find community find partnership, find community find partnership, find community that is forward thinking, figure out that is forward thinking, figure out that is forward thinking, figure out where you fit. And I think there's a lot where you fit. And I think there's a lot where you fit. And I think there's a lot of team like there's going to be so many of team like there's going to be so many of team like there's going to be so many startups with groups of people you would startups with groups of people you would startups with groups of people you would have never imagined, right? That just have never imagined, right? That just have never imagined, right? That just hang out and play golf and all a sudden hang out and play golf and all a sudden hang out and play golf and all a sudden they dream up an idea and one guy's they dream up an idea and one guy's they dream up an idea and one guy's fairly techy and one guy's got this cool fairly techy and one guy's got this cool fairly techy and one guy's got this cool concept and one guy has the distribution concept and one guy has the distribution concept and one guy has the distribution connections » and they're going to fire stuff up so » and they're going to fire stuff up so » and they're going to fire stuff up so fast. Now, you know how many fast. Now, you know how many fast. Now, you know how many conversations on golf course that have conversations on golf course that have conversations on golf course that have happened and then they never execute happened and then they never execute happened and then they never execute anything? Like that's about to change. anything? Like that's about to change. anything? Like that's about to change. Um, like Tyler built a Lego inventory Um, like Tyler built a Lego inventory Um, like Tyler built a Lego inventory app for himself. He's a big Lego nerd. app for himself. He's a big Lego nerd. app for himself. He's a big Lego nerd. Has sets like a whole T literally has a Has sets like a whole T literally has a Has sets like a whole T literally has a giant room of like locked case sets of giant room of like locked case sets of giant room of like locked case sets of things he's built. And so he built a things he's built. And so he built a things he's built. And so he built a little app to just like do all the little app to just like do all the little app to just like do all the inventory, track it, all values, things inventory, track it, all values, things inventory, track it, all values, things like that. And I'm like, that's the like that. And I'm like, that's the like that. And I'm like, that's the opportunity like you just said. But the opportunity like you just said. But the opportunity like you just said. But the software engineers now have to go into software engineers now have to go into software engineers now have to go into the product side, right? The software the product side, right? The software the product side, right? The software engineers like there's way more engineers like there's way more engineers like there's way more opportunity for them. They don't need 20 opportunity for them. They don't need 20 opportunity for them. They don't need 20 peers to build the same thing. They peers to build the same thing. They peers to build the same thing. They themselves now can do a lot more. And themselves now can do a lot more. And themselves now can do a lot more. And more importantly, they have to start more importantly, they have to start more importantly, they have to start thinking about products and solving thinking about products and solving thinking about products and solving problems. problems. problems. » Yeah. I mean, and you actually you made » Yeah. I mean, and you actually you made » Yeah. I mean, and you actually you made me think about something. I had a great me think about something. I had a great me think about something. I had a great conversation with uh these two ladies conversation with uh these two ladies conversation with uh these two ladies last night that are looking to build last night that are looking to build last night that are looking to build something. And you know, I always talk something. And you know, I always talk something. And you know, I always talk about what is your natural advantage? about what is your natural advantage? about what is your natural advantage? You know, [clears throat] like what you You know, [clears throat] like what you You know, [clears throat] like what you know, there's lots of ideas I have that know, there's lots of ideas I have that know, there's lots of ideas I have that you know, I'm not a scientist. I'm not you know, I'm not a scientist. I'm not you know, I'm not a scientist. I'm not this. I don't have any natural this. I don't have any natural this. I don't have any natural advantages. I have a giant folder, you advantages. I have a giant folder, you advantages. I have a giant folder, you probably do too, of like great ideas probably do too, of like great ideas probably do too, of like great ideas that I don't have any time for and I that I don't have any time for and I that I don't have any time for and I don't have any expertise in. So, um, you don't have any expertise in. So, um, you don't have any expertise in. So, um, you know, maybe in the future some of know, maybe in the future some of know, maybe in the future some of that's democratized to where we can go that's democratized to where we can go that's democratized to where we can go back and revisit some of those ideas, back and revisit some of those ideas, back and revisit some of those ideas, but I always encourage people like look but I always encourage people like look but I always encourage people like look at what your natural advantages are in at what your natural advantages are in at what your natural advantages are in the market. You know, uh, one of our the market. You know, uh, one of our the market. You know, uh, one of our clients owns a 3PL and they've been clients owns a 3PL and they've been clients owns a 3PL and they've been running a 3PL for so long running a 3PL for so long running a 3PL for so long » that they're like, "Hey, why don't » that they're like, "Hey, why don't » that they're like, "Hey, why don't we have our own products? Why aren't we we have our own products? Why aren't we we have our own products? Why aren't we running our own brand?" and they running our own brand?" and they running our own brand?" and they understand the logistics and the costs understand the logistics and the costs understand the logistics and the costs of shipping and all that better than of shipping and all that better than of shipping and all that better than everybody else. So that's a natural everybody else. So that's a natural everybody else. So that's a natural advantage to enter into a market and advantage to enter into a market and advantage to enter into a market and build a brand around. Um and so for me build a brand around. Um and so for me build a brand around. Um and so for me when I when I'm dealing with and I deal when I when I'm dealing with and I deal when I when I'm dealing with and I deal with a lot of you know mom and pop type with a lot of you know mom and pop type with a lot of you know mom and pop type stuff. People have an idea in their in stuff. People have an idea in their in stuff. People have an idea in their in their mom's basement on the back of a their mom's basement on the back of a their mom's basement on the back of a napkin and I really kind of I try to napkin and I really kind of I try to napkin and I really kind of I try to figure out what is your natural figure out what is your natural figure out what is your natural advantage? Where is your natural uh advantage? Where is your natural uh advantage? Where is your natural uh where is this going to attack the where is this going to attack the where is this going to attack the market? where can we where can we find a market? where can we where can we find a market? where can we where can we find a beach head that will allow you in order beach head that will allow you in order beach head that will allow you in order allow you to be successful? allow you to be successful? allow you to be successful? » Um because we can we can encourage » Um because we can we can encourage » Um because we can we can encourage everybody to be entrepreneurs, but everybody to be entrepreneurs, but everybody to be entrepreneurs, but there's a lot of failure that's there's a lot of failure that's there's a lot of failure that's associated with entrepreneurship and associated with entrepreneurship and associated with entrepreneurship and it's not for everybody. And if you see it's not for everybody. And if you see it's not for everybody. And if you see any of my old podcasts or any of my old any of my old podcasts or any of my old any of my old podcasts or any of my old content, a lot of it sounds very doom content, a lot of it sounds very doom content, a lot of it sounds very doom and gloom and because it is and gloom and because it is and gloom and because it is tough, you know, and we've been through tough, you know, and we've been through tough, you know, and we've been through a lot of difficult times as a lot of difficult times as a lot of difficult times as entrepreneurs and I don't know like entrepreneurs and I don't know like entrepreneurs and I don't know like your entire story, but I know I know your entire story, but I know I know your entire story, but I know I know you enough to know that it's not all enough to know that it's not all enough to know that it's not all sunshine and rainbows, right? So there's sunshine and rainbows, right? So there's sunshine and rainbows, right? So there's a lot of difficulty and so instead of a lot of difficulty and so instead of a lot of difficulty and so instead of being that doomer and discouraging being that doomer and discouraging being that doomer and discouraging entrepreneurship um which I used to do entrepreneurship um which I used to do entrepreneurship um which I used to do um I want to tell people like um I want to tell people like um I want to tell people like hey I think this is a great opportunity hey I think this is a great opportunity hey I think this is a great opportunity for you. This is a this is the best for you. This is a this is the best for you. This is a this is the best opportunity that we've ever had. I mean opportunity that we've ever had. I mean opportunity that we've ever had. I mean like literally a 100 years ago you like literally a 100 years ago you like literally a 100 years ago you couldn't take a a warm shower, couldn't take a a warm shower, couldn't take a a warm shower, » you know? » you know? » you know? » I mean think about that. You know you » I mean think about that. You know you » I mean think about that. You know you have a this is a great opportunity a have a this is a great opportunity a have a this is a great opportunity a great time to be alive. You know, at the great time to be alive. You know, at the great time to be alive. You know, at the beginning of the century, last century, beginning of the century, last century, beginning of the century, last century, we couldn't fly. And then halfway we couldn't fly. And then halfway we couldn't fly. And then halfway through this, we're flying to the moon, through this, we're flying to the moon, through this, we're flying to the moon, right? It's just like this is this is right? It's just like this is this is right? It's just like this is this is that times 10 times 100, times a that times 10 times 100, times a that times 10 times 100, times a thousand. This is a great opportunity thousand. This is a great opportunity thousand. This is a great opportunity for people that are bold enough to build for people that are bold enough to build for people that are bold enough to build to go out and build and now is the time to go out and build and now is the time to go out and build and now is the time for them to do that. for them to do that. for them to do that. » Yeah, that's really good. Uh I want to » Yeah, that's really good. Uh I want to » Yeah, that's really good. Uh I want to end with this. I'm curious. Uh we just end with this. I'm curious. Uh we just end with this. I'm curious. Uh we just passed our hour mark. I I'm curious, passed our hour mark. I I'm curious, passed our hour mark. I I'm curious, what does winning look like for Trevor what does winning look like for Trevor what does winning look like for Trevor at this stage in his career? I love that at this stage in his career? I love that at this stage in his career? I love that question. Um, love that question. It's a question. Um, love that question. It's a question. Um, love that question. It's a lot different than it used to look, lot different than it used to look, lot different than it used to look, right? So, for me, I used to think I right? So, for me, I used to think I right? So, for me, I used to think I used to tie like what success was to me used to tie like what success was to me used to tie like what success was to me was money in the bank. Um, how many what was money in the bank. Um, how many what was money in the bank. Um, how many what was my headcount? You know, what was my was my headcount? You know, what was my was my headcount? You know, what was my impact? Um, you know, how big was my impact? Um, you know, how big was my impact? Um, you know, how big was my building? Um, you know, all of these building? Um, you know, all of these building? Um, you know, all of these different things that I thought were different things that I thought were different things that I thought were like metrics of success. And like I used like metrics of success. And like I used like metrics of success. And like I used to look down my nose at people that to look down my nose at people that to look down my nose at people that would say like, "Oh, I'm building a would say like, "Oh, I'm building a would say like, "Oh, I'm building a lifestyle business." and I'd say, "Oh, lifestyle business." and I'd say, "Oh, lifestyle business." and I'd say, "Oh, that's cute." Like, that's cute." Like, that's cute." Like, I'm trying to change the world. Like, I'm trying to change the world. Like, I'm trying to change the world. Like, I'm trying to do something big. I'm, you I'm trying to do something big. I'm, you I'm trying to do something big. I'm, you know, I'm improving the lives of know, I'm improving the lives of know, I'm improving the lives of animals. I'm doing this. I'm doing that. animals. I'm doing this. I'm doing that. animals. I'm doing this. I'm doing that. Um, but that's changed over the years. Um, but that's changed over the years. Um, but that's changed over the years. Um, I think maybe it's just come with a Um, I think maybe it's just come with a Um, I think maybe it's just come with a certain amount of pain, maybe a certain amount of pain, maybe a certain amount of pain, maybe a certain amount of wisdom. Um, and or maybe it's amount of wisdom. Um, and or maybe it's amount of wisdom. Um, and or maybe it's just, you know, a natural place for just, you know, a natural place for just, you know, a natural place for entrepreneurship to arrive at, which is, entrepreneurship to arrive at, which is, entrepreneurship to arrive at, which is, you know, my definition of success now you know, my definition of success now you know, my definition of success now is none of those things. My definition is none of those things. My definition is none of those things. My definition of success is being able to pick my kids of success is being able to pick my kids of success is being able to pick my kids up from school every single day. My up from school every single day. My up from school every single day. My definition of success is being able to definition of success is being able to definition of success is being able to take the trips I want to take when I take the trips I want to take when I take the trips I want to take when I want to take it. And so why I get why I want to take it. And so why I get why I want to take it. And so why I get why I do entrepreneurship is really simple. do entrepreneurship is really simple. do entrepreneurship is really simple. It's the freedom to live the kind of It's the freedom to live the kind of It's the freedom to live the kind of life that I want to live life that I want to live life that I want to live » on my terms. Um it probably has » on my terms. Um it probably has » on my terms. Um it probably has something to do with being unemployable something to do with being unemployable something to do with being unemployable as most entrepreneurs are. Uh for me, I as most entrepreneurs are. Uh for me, I as most entrepreneurs are. Uh for me, I really do think that really do think that really do think that » creating the opportunity for us to live » creating the opportunity for us to live » creating the opportunity for us to live the kind of life that we want to live the kind of life that we want to live the kind of life that we want to live and eliminate the oh, I have to and eliminate the oh, I have to and eliminate the oh, I have to request off uh to go to my my son's, you request off uh to go to my my son's, you request off uh to go to my my son's, you know, band program. That's not something know, band program. That's not something know, band program. That's not something I ever deal with. And I'm at every band I ever deal with. And I'm at every band I ever deal with. And I'm at every band program and I'm at I'm coaching his program and I'm at I'm coaching his program and I'm at I'm coaching his sports. I'm coaching my daughter's sports. I'm coaching my daughter's sports. I'm coaching my daughter's stuff. That's why I do what I do and stuff. That's why I do what I do and stuff. That's why I do what I do and that's what I feel is my definition of that's what I feel is my definition of that's what I feel is my definition of success. And that hasn't always been the success. And that hasn't always been the success. And that hasn't always been the case. Um, and so, um, you know, there's case. Um, and so, um, you know, there's case. Um, and so, um, you know, there's nothing wrong with a lifestyle business, nothing wrong with a lifestyle business, nothing wrong with a lifestyle business, especially this these days. And I think especially this these days. And I think especially this these days. And I think if you can create kind of design the if you can create kind of design the if you can create kind of design the life that you want to live, um, and I life that you want to live, um, and I life that you want to live, um, and I don't think it's too late for anybody. don't think it's too late for anybody. don't think it's too late for anybody. Like I know people are hearing this Like I know people are hearing this Like I know people are hearing this right now probably stuck in a shitty job right now probably stuck in a shitty job right now probably stuck in a shitty job they hate thinking like, "Yeah, that's they hate thinking like, "Yeah, that's they hate thinking like, "Yeah, that's great. I don't have any of these great. I don't have any of these great. I don't have any of these resources or abilities." Like, you can resources or abilities." Like, you can resources or abilities." Like, you can design the life that you want to live. design the life that you want to live. design the life that you want to live. And now with AI in this day and age and And now with AI in this day and age and And now with AI in this day and age and innovation, it's easier than it ever innovation, it's easier than it ever innovation, it's easier than it ever was. the barrier to entry is lower than was. the barrier to entry is lower than was. the barrier to entry is lower than it ever was and so now is the time to it ever was and so now is the time to it ever was and so now is the time to build. build. build. » Yeah, it's very good. Trevor, I » Yeah, it's very good. Trevor, I » Yeah, it's very good. Trevor, I appreciate your appreciate your appreciate your renaissance nature, your resilience. I renaissance nature, your resilience. I renaissance nature, your resilience. I mean, like when I met you, I was like, mean, like when I met you, I was like, mean, like when I met you, I was like, golly, this guy's got his head down and golly, this guy's got his head down and golly, this guy's got his head down and he's plowing through walls. Like, he's plowing through walls. Like, he's plowing through walls. Like, whenever there was a wall, you're just whenever there was a wall, you're just whenever there was a wall, you're just like, I Yeah. And everyone's trying to like, I Yeah. And everyone's trying to like, I Yeah. And everyone's trying to find a way around it. I'm just going to find a way around it. I'm just going to find a way around it. I'm just going to run through it. You know what? Can I run through it. You know what? Can I run through it. You know what? Can I tell you something about that? Actually, tell you something about that? Actually, tell you something about that? Actually, going back to our definition of success, going back to our definition of success, going back to our definition of success, I used to run through every single wall I used to run through every single wall I used to run through every single wall you put in front of me. And you know, you put in front of me. And you know, you put in front of me. And you know, after years of running through walls, after years of running through walls, after years of running through walls, » yeah, » yeah, » yeah, » you start to you start to maybe you run » you start to you start to maybe you run » you start to you start to maybe you run through it and it doesn't break through it and it doesn't break through it and it doesn't break through the same way. And so then you start to the same way. And so then you start to the same way. And so then you start to be, you know, a little bit more be, you know, a little bit more be, you know, a little bit more finesseful. Maybe I can go over it. finesseful. Maybe I can go over it. finesseful. Maybe I can go over it. Maybe I can go around it. Maybe I can go Maybe I can go around it. Maybe I can go Maybe I can go around it. Maybe I can go under it. Maybe I can punch through this under it. Maybe I can punch through this under it. Maybe I can punch through this one with maybe I can kick through this one with maybe I can kick through this one with maybe I can kick through this one. But after you go through enough one. But after you go through enough one. But after you go through enough walls, you'll you'll come to find out walls, you'll you'll come to find out walls, you'll you'll come to find out that uh you're not invincible and you're that uh you're not invincible and you're that uh you're not invincible and you're not bulletproof and life does go on. And not bulletproof and life does go on. And not bulletproof and life does go on. And » and that's what I was going to say. » and that's what I was going to say. » and that's what I was going to say. Yeah, like there's like a stage of your Yeah, like there's like a stage of your Yeah, like there's like a stage of your career I think everyone has to do that, career I think everyone has to do that, career I think everyone has to do that, right? Like there's a stage where you're right? Like there's a stage where you're right? Like there's a stage where you're just like it it's so uh fake it till you just like it it's so uh fake it till you just like it it's so uh fake it till you make it. There's so much that could go make it. There's so much that could go make it. There's so much that could go wrong at the beginning. Like you've got wrong at the beginning. Like you've got wrong at the beginning. Like you've got to give up a lot at the beginning. You to give up a lot at the beginning. You to give up a lot at the beginning. You don't get that life day one for sure. don't get that life day one for sure. don't get that life day one for sure. » So which I love that 15 years later » So which I love that 15 years later » So which I love that 15 years later you're like here and that's what I was you're like here and that's what I was you're like here and that's what I was going to say is your approach now seems going to say is your approach now seems going to say is your approach now seems so thoughtful, so balanced um like so thoughtful, so balanced um like so thoughtful, so balanced um like compared to when I first met you, right? compared to when I first met you, right? compared to when I first met you, right? Like where you're Like where you're Like where you're » It took a lot of pain to get here, » It took a lot of pain to get here, » It took a lot of pain to get here, » right? Yeah. And so I appreciate that » right? Yeah. And so I appreciate that » right? Yeah. And so I appreciate that and you're just a smart dude and I and you're just a smart dude and I and you're just a smart dude and I genuinely know this about you that you genuinely know this about you that you genuinely know this about you that you do love helping entrepreneurs and you're do love helping entrepreneurs and you're do love helping entrepreneurs and you're fascinated by entrepreneurs and anytime fascinated by entrepreneurs and anytime fascinated by entrepreneurs and anytime I'm ever around you I just feel like uh I'm ever around you I just feel like uh I'm ever around you I just feel like uh this guy's got my back like I've every this guy's got my back like I've every this guy's got my back like I've every time we've had a conversation I know you time we've had a conversation I know you time we've had a conversation I know you do that with so many other people and do that with so many other people and do that with so many other people and appreciate the warm words and I appreciate the warm words and I appreciate the warm words and I appreciate you having me on here. It's appreciate you having me on here. It's appreciate you having me on here. It's been great. been great. been great. » It's been awesome. Appreciate in. ---