Law, Burnout, and the M&A Work That Finally Made Sense with Sam Foreman | Ep 60

So then the stress and everything of So then the stress and everything of starting a firm, you know, surviving and starting a firm, you know, surviving and starting a firm, you know, surviving and then co and I mean it really took a toll then co and I mean it really took a toll then co and I mean it really took a toll on my mental health like on my mental health like on my mental health like » I mean it was it was extreme. Uh and » I mean it was it was extreme. Uh and » I mean it was it was extreme. Uh and I'll never forget this moment until I I'll never forget this moment until I I'll never forget this moment until I completely lose all my marbles and then completely lose all my marbles and then completely lose all my marbles and then I'll forget everything. Um, but I was I'll forget everything. Um, but I was I'll forget everything. Um, but I was sitting down at the table uh in our sitting down at the table uh in our sitting down at the table uh in our kitchen and my wife is sitting down kitchen and my wife is sitting down kitchen and my wife is sitting down across from me and she just looks at me across from me and she just looks at me across from me and she just looks at me and she says, and she says, and she says, "The Killer Growth podcast starts now. "The Killer Growth podcast starts now. "The Killer Growth podcast starts now. What's up guys? Sam McVey here with the What's up guys? Sam McVey here with the Killer Growth podcast and today I have Killer Growth podcast and today I have Killer Growth podcast and today I have Sam Foreman, founder of Foreman Law and Sam Foreman, founder of Foreman Law and Sam Foreman, founder of Foreman Law and CEO and an attorney. CEO and an attorney. CEO and an attorney. » Yeah, » Yeah, » Yeah, » you wear [clears throat] a lot of hats, » you wear [clears throat] a lot of hats, » you wear [clears throat] a lot of hats, I'm assuming. Chief marketing officer. I'm assuming. Chief marketing officer. I'm assuming. Chief marketing officer. » Yeah. Oh, that kind of hats. Yeah, I do » Yeah. Oh, that kind of hats. Yeah, I do » Yeah. Oh, that kind of hats. Yeah, I do have many hats at home also that I wear have many hats at home also that I wear have many hats at home also that I wear on my head. on my head. on my head. » Um, but yeah. No. » Um, but yeah. No. » Um, but yeah. No. » Do you have a big hat collection? Um, I » Do you have a big hat collection? Um, I » Do you have a big hat collection? Um, I do. It's not a large hat collection. do. It's not a large hat collection. do. It's not a large hat collection. They're all normal size. They're all normal size. They're all normal size. » Okay. » Okay. » Okay. » Um, and uh, even though I have a big » Um, and uh, even though I have a big » Um, and uh, even though I have a big head, I just can't, you know, I've gota head, I just can't, you know, I've gota head, I just can't, you know, I've gota got to use normal hats. Um, I have like got to use normal hats. Um, I have like got to use normal hats. Um, I have like eight ball caps. That's about it. Yeah. eight ball caps. That's about it. Yeah. eight ball caps. That's about it. Yeah. » Yeah. My son Hayes steals them » Yeah. My son Hayes steals them » Yeah. My son Hayes steals them frequently usually while I'm carrying frequently usually while I'm carrying frequently usually while I'm carrying them around on my shoulders. Yeah. them around on my shoulders. Yeah. them around on my shoulders. Yeah. » Which is weird. » Which is weird. » Which is weird. » Good thing they're regulariz so he can » Good thing they're regulariz so he can » Good thing they're regulariz so he can pull them off. pull them off. pull them off. » Yeah, I know. I always feel like I » Yeah, I know. I always feel like I » Yeah, I know. I always feel like I should be wearing one of those hats that should be wearing one of those hats that should be wearing one of those hats that um what's his face from SNL would wear um what's his face from SNL would wear um what's his face from SNL would wear around. Um around. Um around. Um » gosh, I can't even his name, but he he » gosh, I can't even his name, but he he » gosh, I can't even his name, but he he played Bert Reynolds on on SNL. Nor played Bert Reynolds on on SNL. Nor played Bert Reynolds on on SNL. Nor McDonald. McDonald. McDonald. » Nor McDonald. There you go. » Nor McDonald. There you go. » Nor McDonald. There you go. » Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, » Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, » Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, » he's a funny dude. » he's a funny dude. » he's a funny dude. » He is a funny dude. » He is a funny dude. » He is a funny dude. » He's I think one of the most underrated » He's I think one of the most underrated » He's I think one of the most underrated standup comedians and he very dry. He standup comedians and he very dry. He standup comedians and he very dry. He can He definitely crosses the line can He definitely crosses the line can He definitely crosses the line regularly. Oh, but man, regularly. Oh, but man, regularly. Oh, but man, » there's [clears throat] a line on SNL. » there's [clears throat] a line on SNL. » there's [clears throat] a line on SNL. » I mean, his standup routines are » I mean, his standup routines are » I mean, his standup routines are » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » totally like another level. Like, you » totally like another level. Like, you » totally like another level. Like, you take a SNL is like familyfriendly take a SNL is like familyfriendly take a SNL is like familyfriendly compared to a lot of his standup compared to a lot of his standup compared to a lot of his standup routines. routines. routines. » Fair. Fair. » Fair. Fair. » Fair. Fair. » And his podcast, he actually has a he » And his podcast, he actually has a he » And his podcast, he actually has a he had a podcast for a while. I don't think had a podcast for a while. I don't think had a podcast for a while. I don't think it's still it's still it's still » going where he did interview people. And » going where he did interview people. And » going where he did interview people. And that was probably some of my favorite that was probably some of my favorite that was probably some of my favorite interviews I've ever seen. interviews I've ever seen. interviews I've ever seen. » That's great. A dry guy interviewing » That's great. A dry guy interviewing » That's great. A dry guy interviewing people is wonderful. people is wonderful. people is wonderful. » Yeah. Like uh you've probably seen Zack » Yeah. Like uh you've probably seen Zack » Yeah. Like uh you've probably seen Zack Galifanakas Between [clears throat] Two Galifanakas Between [clears throat] Two Galifanakas Between [clears throat] Two Ferns. Ferns. Ferns. » Oh yeah. Yeah. That's » Oh yeah. Yeah. That's » Oh yeah. Yeah. That's » Yeah. That's » Yeah. That's » Yeah. That's » You're the first person I've ever heard » You're the first person I've ever heard » You're the first person I've ever heard his last name. his last name. his last name. » Yeah. He's going to be that guy. I just » Yeah. He's going to be that guy. I just » Yeah. He's going to be that guy. I just don't even say it. I just say Zack Gal. don't even say it. I just say Zack Gal. don't even say it. I just say Zack Gal. » Yeah. Well, you know, once upon a time » Yeah. Well, you know, once upon a time » Yeah. Well, you know, once upon a time people thought I kind of resembled Zack, people thought I kind of resembled Zack, people thought I kind of resembled Zack, but it's been a while. So, but it's been a while. So, but it's been a while. So, » um » um » um » that's one of my questions actually. » that's one of my questions actually. » that's one of my questions actually. That's wild that he led into that. That's wild that he led into that. That's wild that he led into that. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. Do people mistake you for Zack Do people mistake you for Zack Do people mistake you for Zack Galifanakis? That's such a bizarre Galifanakis? That's such a bizarre Galifanakis? That's such a bizarre question. Um, but you're question. Um, but you're question. Um, but you're » Conor and Nexus. They mistake him for um » Conor and Nexus. They mistake him for um » Conor and Nexus. They mistake him for um » No, Shane Gillis. » No, Shane Gillis. » No, Shane Gillis. » Shane Gillis. » Shane Gillis. » Shane Gillis. » Shane Gillis. And you're G of » Shane Gillis. And you're G of » Shane Gillis. And you're G of » Yeah. Well, it was that close. » Yeah. Well, it was that close. » Yeah. Well, it was that close. » He » He » He a robot. a robot. a robot. » We're a robot. Not good at all. » We're a robot. Not good at all. » We're a robot. Not good at all. » But you had a serious question and then » But you had a serious question and then » But you had a serious question and then as usual, I completely derailed the as usual, I completely derailed the as usual, I completely derailed the conversation. Oh, that's kind of how conversation. Oh, that's kind of how conversation. Oh, that's kind of how this is going to go. But, uh, actually, this is going to go. But, uh, actually, this is going to go. But, uh, actually, it is a serious question and I'm going it is a serious question and I'm going it is a serious question and I'm going to ask it different. I'm going to do to ask it different. I'm going to do to ask it different. I'm going to do this whole interview different than I do this whole interview different than I do this whole interview different than I do with anyone because I know pieces of with anyone because I know pieces of with anyone because I know pieces of your story and we have a shared your story and we have a shared your story and we have a shared experience being homeschoolers. experience being homeschoolers. experience being homeschoolers. » Yes. » Yes. » Yes. » And so, my first question is, how does a » And so, my first question is, how does a » And so, my first question is, how does a homeschooler all of a sudden own a law homeschooler all of a sudden own a law homeschooler all of a sudden own a law practice? practice? practice? » It's basically inviting you to tell your » It's basically inviting you to tell your » It's basically inviting you to tell your story, but I don't know your story, but I don't know your story, but I don't know your story besides I homeschooled and then I went besides I homeschooled and then I went besides I homeschooled and then I went to law school. to law school. to law school. » Yeah. Well, let me uh let me give kind » Yeah. Well, let me uh let me give kind » Yeah. Well, let me uh let me give kind of some of the origin story, if you of some of the origin story, if you of some of the origin story, if you will. So, I grew up in Topeka. Uh and will. So, I grew up in Topeka. Uh and will. So, I grew up in Topeka. Uh and for me, it was a great experience that I for me, it was a great experience that I for me, it was a great experience that I I was homeschooled all the way from uh I was homeschooled all the way from uh I was homeschooled all the way from uh birth through um high school. Um so, birth through um high school. Um so, birth through um high school. Um so, graduated from home school, then I went graduated from home school, then I went graduated from home school, then I went to to to » handed your first curriculum book » handed your first curriculum book » handed your first curriculum book out of the womb, out of the womb, out of the womb, » right? There's a picture with you. » right? There's a picture with you. » right? There's a picture with you. » Yeah, it was crazy. I was » Yeah, it was crazy. I was » Yeah, it was crazy. I was reading before I could crawl. Um reading before I could crawl. Um reading before I could crawl. Um [clears throat] uh but no, it was it was [clears throat] uh but no, it was it was [clears throat] uh but no, it was it was a great experience for me. Homeschooling a great experience for me. Homeschooling a great experience for me. Homeschooling doesn't work for everyone, but um it doesn't work for everyone, but um it doesn't work for everyone, but um it worked it worked really well for me. worked it worked really well for me. worked it worked really well for me. Worked really well for most of my Worked really well for most of my Worked really well for most of my siblings. Um siblings. Um siblings. Um » uh but then I went to Washurn, studied » uh but then I went to Washurn, studied » uh but then I went to Washurn, studied accounting in undergrad. Uh then I went accounting in undergrad. Uh then I went accounting in undergrad. Uh then I went to law school. Uh and uh you know, knew to law school. Uh and uh you know, knew to law school. Uh and uh you know, knew I wanted to do something business I wanted to do something business I wanted to do something business related. thought I would be doing uh related. thought I would be doing uh related. thought I would be doing uh this sort of blended role of you know this sort of blended role of you know this sort of blended role of you know business accounting and law inside of a business accounting and law inside of a business accounting and law inside of a business and uh you know so I was business and uh you know so I was business and uh you know so I was working in law school working in law school working in law school um while doing law school and so for um while doing law school and so for um while doing law school and so for anybody who's um wondering whether or anybody who's um wondering whether or anybody who's um wondering whether or not I'm a smart person I'll let you draw not I'm a smart person I'll let you draw not I'm a smart person I'll let you draw your own conclusions but uh in your own conclusions but uh in your own conclusions but uh in retrospect that was not one of my retrospect that was not one of my retrospect that was not one of my smarter moments um but by the grace of smarter moments um but by the grace of smarter moments um but by the grace of God I still did very well in law school God I still did very well in law school God I still did very well in law school um even with all my poor choices. But um um even with all my poor choices. But um um even with all my poor choices. But um uh yeah, that didn't pan out the way I'd uh yeah, that didn't pan out the way I'd uh yeah, that didn't pan out the way I'd hoped. And a lot of it was in hoped. And a lot of it was in hoped. And a lot of it was in retrospect, I just lacked the maturity. retrospect, I just lacked the maturity. retrospect, I just lacked the maturity. I lacked the discipline. Um really cool I lacked the discipline. Um really cool I lacked the discipline. Um really cool opportunities. Got to meet some really opportunities. Got to meet some really opportunities. Got to meet some really cool people, do some really cool stuff, cool people, do some really cool stuff, cool people, do some really cool stuff, but it just was, you know, beyond what but it just was, you know, beyond what but it just was, you know, beyond what um in retrospect my capabilities were. um in retrospect my capabilities were. um in retrospect my capabilities were. » And are you talking I'm sorry. » And are you talking I'm sorry. » And are you talking I'm sorry. » The job that I was that I was working » The job that I was that I was working » The job that I was that I was working while I was in law school. while I was in law school. while I was in law school. » Um but yeah, law school was uh quite » Um but yeah, law school was uh quite » Um but yeah, law school was uh quite an experience. Um it is uh soul an experience. Um it is uh soul an experience. Um it is uh soul crushing. Uh it is a ton of work, much crushing. Uh it is a ton of work, much crushing. Uh it is a ton of work, much of which is completely irrelevant to of which is completely irrelevant to of which is completely irrelevant to anything you'll do in the future. Um but anything you'll do in the future. Um but anything you'll do in the future. Um but overall it really, you know, really overall it really, you know, really overall it really, you know, really stretches you and makes you work hard at stretches you and makes you work hard at stretches you and makes you work hard at stuff. And so then I got great stuff. And so then I got great stuff. And so then I got great opportunity here in Witchah at a law opportunity here in Witchah at a law opportunity here in Witchah at a law school which um I was very school which um I was very school which um I was very fortunate to get because uh in law fortunate to get because uh in law fortunate to get because uh in law school, you know, your best path to jobs school, you know, your best path to jobs school, you know, your best path to jobs is to go work in a law firm, right? Or is to go work in a law firm, right? Or is to go work in a law firm, right? Or go work for, you know, a government go work for, you know, a government go work for, you know, a government agency or somebody else that frequently agency or somebody else that frequently agency or somebody else that frequently hires lawyers. It's not to, you know, go hires lawyers. It's not to, you know, go hires lawyers. It's not to, you know, go in-house at a small business that in-house at a small business that in-house at a small business that doesn't really have that doesn't really have that doesn't really have that infrastructure. infrastructure. infrastructure. And um and so when that job I was at And um and so when that job I was at And um and so when that job I was at didn't work out, you know, here I was didn't work out, you know, here I was didn't work out, you know, here I was like, hey, I don't have any experience like, hey, I don't have any experience like, hey, I don't have any experience that's going to like chart me towards that's going to like chart me towards that's going to like chart me towards getting a law job. And by the grace of getting a law job. And by the grace of getting a law job. And by the grace of God, um an opportunity opened up uh in God, um an opportunity opened up uh in God, um an opportunity opened up uh in Witchah. Um at just the right moment, Witchah. Um at just the right moment, Witchah. Um at just the right moment, which is just like God, um at just which is just like God, um at just which is just like God, um at just the right time, you know, here it is. the right time, you know, here it is. the right time, you know, here it is. You know, I need I had to be humbled You know, I need I had to be humbled You know, I need I had to be humbled first. I had to realize more of my first. I had to realize more of my first. I had to realize more of my limits. you know, I needed to see his limits. you know, I needed to see his limits. you know, I needed to see his fingerprints on things. And so, you fingerprints on things. And so, you fingerprints on things. And so, you know, I was reading through the know, I was reading through the know, I was reading through the description and it read like my resume description and it read like my resume description and it read like my resume and it was just like, okay, God knows and it was just like, okay, God knows and it was just like, okay, God knows I'm slow and I'm a little stupid I'm slow and I'm a little stupid I'm slow and I'm a little stupid sometimes, maybe most of the time. It's sometimes, maybe most of the time. It's sometimes, maybe most of the time. It's going to make it really obvious. I'm going to make it really obvious. I'm going to make it really obvious. I'm going to go pursue that. And I was going to go pursue that. And I was going to go pursue that. And I was looking at that and right before looking at that and right before looking at that and right before that, I had I was presented with an that, I had I was presented with an that, I had I was presented with an opportunity to go um take what would opportunity to go um take what would opportunity to go um take what would have been a really interesting job in have been a really interesting job in have been a really interesting job in Cottonwood Falls, Kansas. Um population Cottonwood Falls, Kansas. Um population Cottonwood Falls, Kansas. Um population um uh three bears a cow and um um uh three bears a cow and um um uh three bears a cow and um » two people » two people » two people » and about a about 800 people um uh and » and about a about 800 people um uh and » and about a about 800 people um uh and beautiful country. Oh, beautiful. It's beautiful country. Oh, beautiful. It's beautiful country. Oh, beautiful. It's gorgeous. I mean, anybody who gets a gorgeous. I mean, anybody who gets a gorgeous. I mean, anybody who gets a chance, go there. It's a neat chance, go there. It's a neat chance, go there. It's a neat experience. Beautiful courthouse. Um experience. Beautiful courthouse. Um experience. Beautiful courthouse. Um » yeah. Um and so was really close on » yeah. Um and so was really close on » yeah. Um and so was really close on that one cuz I really needed a job. And that one cuz I really needed a job. And that one cuz I really needed a job. And then this opportunity opened up in W. then this opportunity opened up in W. then this opportunity opened up in W. I'm like, okay, I should I should go I'm like, okay, I should I should go I'm like, okay, I should I should go pursue that. got some great training, pursue that. got some great training, pursue that. got some great training, was there, you know, for four years. was there, you know, for four years. was there, you know, for four years. That's where I worked um when I met my That's where I worked um when I met my That's where I worked um when I met my wife and tricked her into moving from wife and tricked her into moving from wife and tricked her into moving from Oklahoma up here to uh uh to Witchah. Um Oklahoma up here to uh uh to Witchah. Um Oklahoma up here to uh uh to Witchah. Um » has she figured it out yet, » has she figured it out yet, » has she figured it out yet, » please? Like, can we cut that? Can we » please? Like, can we cut that? Can we » please? Like, can we cut that? Can we edit that? Um and uh you edit that? Um and uh you edit that? Um and uh you know, then so I was there for about 5 know, then so I was there for about 5 know, then so I was there for about 5 years. Um and then just needed to kind years. Um and then just needed to kind years. Um and then just needed to kind of keep growing, advancing my career. So of keep growing, advancing my career. So of keep growing, advancing my career. So I went on to another firm for about two I went on to another firm for about two I went on to another firm for about two and a half years, made partner there, my and a half years, made partner there, my and a half years, made partner there, my my practice was growing like crazy and my practice was growing like crazy and my practice was growing like crazy and you know by the grace of God and great you know by the grace of God and great you know by the grace of God and great clients and was just getting to the clients and was just getting to the clients and was just getting to the point where it's like I'm just working point where it's like I'm just working point where it's like I'm just working all the time and um you know health is all the time and um you know health is all the time and um you know health is not doing well. There's just, you know, not doing well. There's just, you know, not doing well. There's just, you know, it's just I'm working, I'm working, I'm it's just I'm working, I'm working, I'm it's just I'm working, I'm working, I'm working. About that time, a friend of working. About that time, a friend of working. About that time, a friend of mine um said, you know, Sam, you got to mine um said, you know, Sam, you got to mine um said, you know, Sam, you got to trust God to with that he can do more in trust God to with that he can do more in trust God to with that he can do more in six days than you can do in seven. Cuz I six days than you can do in seven. Cuz I six days than you can do in seven. Cuz I was pretty much kind of working every was pretty much kind of working every was pretty much kind of working every single day. And that really single day. And that really single day. And that really registered and resonated with me. And registered and resonated with me. And registered and resonated with me. And that's that's been a keystone thought. that's that's been a keystone thought. that's that's been a keystone thought. So, uh Nate, if you're listening, thank So, uh Nate, if you're listening, thank So, uh Nate, if you're listening, thank you, brother. you, brother. you, brother. Um Um Um and so I made partner there um after and so I made partner there um after and so I made partner there um after about two years. Uh which was a really about two years. Uh which was a really about two years. Uh which was a really neat experience. Um really grateful that neat experience. Um really grateful that neat experience. Um really grateful that they trusted me with that. Um they trusted me with that. Um they trusted me with that. Um we were looking for help because my we were looking for help because my we were looking for help because my practice was growing, needed more practice was growing, needed more practice was growing, needed more people. And so went to um uh went on a people. And so went to um uh went on a people. And so went to um uh went on a vacation, my wife and I and our like vacation, my wife and I and our like vacation, my wife and I and our like 2-year-old son. Um uh and we're just 2-year-old son. Um uh and we're just 2-year-old son. Um uh and we're just like this just isn't sustainable because like this just isn't sustainable because like this just isn't sustainable because it wasn't working like we weren't it wasn't working like we weren't it wasn't working like we weren't getting the help that we needed and they getting the help that we needed and they getting the help that we needed and they were trying the firm was trying and were trying the firm was trying and were trying the firm was trying and really grateful for that. really grateful for that. really grateful for that. » Um and so we went on vacation 4 months » Um and so we went on vacation 4 months » Um and so we went on vacation 4 months after I made partner and came back um after I made partner and came back um after I made partner and came back um and on while we were on vacation in and on while we were on vacation in and on while we were on vacation in between vacationing on vacation and between vacationing on vacation and between vacationing on vacation and working on vacation working on vacation working on vacation » um » um » um we're just like hey this isn't we're just like hey this isn't we're just like hey this isn't working. We got to we got to try working. We got to we got to try working. We got to we got to try something else. We got to go do our own something else. We got to go do our own something else. We got to go do our own thing. And I was I had a fair amount of thing. And I was I had a fair amount of thing. And I was I had a fair amount of frustrations with kind of the frustrations with kind of the frustrations with kind of the traditional law firm model. I'm like, traditional law firm model. I'm like, traditional law firm model. I'm like, hey, I got to, you know, I think I can hey, I got to, you know, I think I can hey, I got to, you know, I think I can do things better. I think I can do do things better. I think I can do do things better. I think I can do different things. I think clients will different things. I think clients will different things. I think clients will follow me. Um, follow me. Um, follow me. Um, and so it came back and, you know, and so it came back and, you know, and so it came back and, you know, several months after the email to several months after the email to several months after the email to everybody of like, this is the honor of everybody of like, this is the honor of everybody of like, this is the honor of a lifetime. Thank you. Which it truly a lifetime. Thank you. Which it truly a lifetime. Thank you. Which it truly was and truly remains a, you know, a was and truly remains a, you know, a was and truly remains a, you know, a significant moment that I'm very significant moment that I'm very significant moment that I'm very grateful for. Um was like, hey, this grateful for. Um was like, hey, this grateful for. Um was like, hey, this isn't, you know, this isn't working. I'm isn't, you know, this isn't working. I'm isn't, you know, this isn't working. I'm going to need to I'm going to need to go going to need to I'm going to need to go going to need to I'm going to need to go right because I knew what I could do on right because I knew what I could do on right because I knew what I could do on my own. Uh because just the model works my own. Uh because just the model works my own. Uh because just the model works differently, works vastly differently. differently, works vastly differently. differently, works vastly differently. Um uh in terms of being able to add help Um uh in terms of being able to add help Um uh in terms of being able to add help um and what I [clears throat] could do um and what I [clears throat] could do um and what I [clears throat] could do for my family versus um remaining there, for my family versus um remaining there, for my family versus um remaining there, right? Which which if id stayed and I right? Which which if id stayed and I right? Which which if id stayed and I tried to force that, it would have put tried to force that, it would have put tried to force that, it would have put them in a position because there was a them in a position because there was a them in a position because there was a reason it didn't work because I wasn't reason it didn't work because I wasn't reason it didn't work because I wasn't the right quite the right fit for the right quite the right fit for the right quite the right fit for how my practice needed to grow. So it how my practice needed to grow. So it how my practice needed to grow. So it wasn't like a, you know, a negative on wasn't like a, you know, a negative on wasn't like a, you know, a negative on them. It was just they were wired and them. It was just they were wired and them. It was just they were wired and set up for a particular thing and I was set up for a particular thing and I was set up for a particular thing and I was wired for something else, you know. And wired for something else, you know. And wired for something else, you know. And so so so » um I made that move and uh started the » um I made that move and uh started the » um I made that move and uh started the firm. Our first office was um above a firm. Our first office was um above a firm. Our first office was um above a sushi restaurant uh on Douglas Avenue in sushi restaurant uh on Douglas Avenue in sushi restaurant uh on Douglas Avenue in downtown Witchah. downtown Witchah. downtown Witchah. » Above Wasabi. » Above Wasabi. » Above Wasabi. » Yeah. Above Wasabi. » Yeah. Above Wasabi. » Yeah. Above Wasabi. » Let's go. I love wasabi. » Let's go. I love wasabi. » Let's go. I love wasabi. » I love wasabi. I love sushi. You know, » I love wasabi. I love sushi. You know, » I love wasabi. I love sushi. You know, we're all great startup stories. we're all great startup stories. we're all great startup stories. » Do you remember the to heaven roll that » Do you remember the to heaven roll that » Do you remember the to heaven roll that they changed the name on the menu they changed the name on the menu they changed the name on the menu and it took me a while to find it again. and it took me a while to find it again. and it took me a while to find it again. » And I would explain it and they would » And I would explain it and they would » And I would explain it and they would think I was crazy. I'm like, "No, you think I was crazy. I'm like, "No, you think I was crazy. I'm like, "No, you had this cucumber wrapped roll." And it had this cucumber wrapped roll." And it had this cucumber wrapped roll." And it was the interior, not the skin, but they was the interior, not the skin, but they was the interior, not the skin, but they just like just like just like » I you know, shaved a cucumber as the » I you know, shaved a cucumber as the » I you know, shaved a cucumber as the seaweed replacement, seaweed replacement, seaweed replacement, » right? Did the cucumber have a beard? » right? Did the cucumber have a beard? » right? Did the cucumber have a beard? » No. Does that not shaved it? » No. Does that not shaved it? » No. Does that not shaved it? Okay. Um, but uh I don't remember that Okay. Um, but uh I don't remember that Okay. Um, but uh I don't remember that specific roll. My sushi tastes are specific roll. My sushi tastes are specific roll. My sushi tastes are pretty basic. Like pretty basic. Like pretty basic. Like » fried. » fried. » fried. » I'll have the shrimp tempura roll and » I'll have the shrimp tempura roll and » I'll have the shrimp tempura roll and the spicy tuna roll. And you know what? the spicy tuna roll. And you know what? the spicy tuna roll. And you know what? Actually, scratch those first two. I'll Actually, scratch those first two. I'll Actually, scratch those first two. I'll just have a California roll. But um yeah. No, sushi's great, man. But um yeah. No, sushi's great, man. Yeah, let's let's do sushi sometime. Yeah, let's let's do sushi sometime. Yeah, let's let's do sushi sometime. » Um » Um » Um » but that was that was great. Like the » but that was that was great. Like the » but that was that was great. Like the first week I was open, uh, a guy I had first week I was open, uh, a guy I had first week I was open, uh, a guy I had known who worked at a large law firm known who worked at a large law firm known who worked at a large law firm in town showed up, uh, David Ferguson in town showed up, uh, David Ferguson in town showed up, uh, David Ferguson and he was like, "Hey, man, what you and he was like, "Hey, man, what you and he was like, "Hey, man, what you doing?" You know, and so he he knew, you doing?" You know, and so he he knew, you doing?" You know, and so he he knew, you know, and had heard about what I was know, and had heard about what I was know, and had heard about what I was trying to do and I was trying to do trying to do and I was trying to do trying to do and I was trying to do things different than the traditional things different than the traditional things different than the traditional firm model and so he was interested in firm model and so he was interested in firm model and so he was interested in being part of that and, you know, things being part of that and, you know, things being part of that and, you know, things just kind of grew from there. just kind of grew from there. just kind of grew from there. » Well, that how inappropriate of me. » Well, that how inappropriate of me. » Well, that how inappropriate of me. » Yeah. um you know for whom the bell » Yeah. um you know for whom the bell » Yeah. um you know for whom the bell tolls for thee. Um uh but uh you tolls for thee. Um uh but uh you tolls for thee. Um uh but uh you know it kind of uh you know so so David know it kind of uh you know so so David know it kind of uh you know so so David showed up and knew I was doing some you showed up and knew I was doing some you showed up and knew I was doing some you know some uh some different things or know some uh some different things or know some uh some different things or had aspirations to do some different had aspirations to do some different had aspirations to do some different things at the time. My my focus was very things at the time. My my focus was very things at the time. My my focus was very much on startups and entrepreneurs. Um much on startups and entrepreneurs. Um much on startups and entrepreneurs. Um and so uh and he had a lot of interest and so uh and he had a lot of interest and so uh and he had a lot of interest in that space as well. Um, and so, uh, in that space as well. Um, and so, uh, in that space as well. Um, and so, uh, we ended up, you know, kind of working we ended up, you know, kind of working we ended up, you know, kind of working out an arrangement and he ended up out an arrangement and he ended up out an arrangement and he ended up coming over and joining the coming over and joining the coming over and joining the firm. firm. firm. » What year was that, by the way? » What year was that, by the way? » What year was that, by the way? » That was in 2019. So, this is 7 years » That was in 2019. So, this is 7 years » That was in 2019. So, this is 7 years ago. ago. ago. » Um, [clears throat] » Um, [clears throat] » Um, [clears throat] and so, uh, I was too stupid at that and so, uh, I was too stupid at that and so, uh, I was too stupid at that point to know, um, how little I knew point to know, um, how little I knew point to know, um, how little I knew about everything that mattered. But, um, about everything that mattered. But, um, about everything that mattered. But, um, I knew enough and, uh, you know, it was I knew enough and, uh, you know, it was I knew enough and, uh, you know, it was I'm really glad that I did it. Um, it's I'm really glad that I did it. Um, it's I'm really glad that I did it. Um, it's been a ton of work, but we had a couple been a ton of work, but we had a couple been a ton of work, but we had a couple other people, you know, join the firm. other people, you know, join the firm. other people, you know, join the firm. um over the years. Uh and you know got um over the years. Uh and you know got um over the years. Uh and you know got to do some really cool things um one of to do some really cool things um one of to do some really cool things um one of the things that was very interesting for the things that was very interesting for the things that was very interesting for us along the way was us along the way was us along the way was um uh as we as we were kind of starting um uh as we as we were kind of starting um uh as we as we were kind of starting to see the firm grow. This was in late to see the firm grow. This was in late to see the firm grow. This was in late 2019 like okay we think we've got some really like okay we think we've got some really like okay we think we've got some really interesting stuff here in terms of you interesting stuff here in terms of you interesting stuff here in terms of you know the model for the firm that we know the model for the firm that we know the model for the firm that we have and the opportunities that can have and the opportunities that can have and the opportunities that can create for young attorneys. And we we'd create for young attorneys. And we we'd create for young attorneys. And we we'd identified a pain point in the market identified a pain point in the market identified a pain point in the market that we wanted to serve attorneys with, that we wanted to serve attorneys with, that we wanted to serve attorneys with, which was there's these young attorneys which was there's these young attorneys which was there's these young attorneys that have growing practices that also that have growing practices that also that have growing practices that also have families that don't want the have families that don't want the have families that don't want the traditional model. And so, you know, traditional model. And so, you know, traditional model. And so, you know, let's see how we can help them and grow let's see how we can help them and grow let's see how we can help them and grow a cool business here in the process. And a cool business here in the process. And a cool business here in the process. And so in that process, we were having these so in that process, we were having these so in that process, we were having these really interesting, exciting really interesting, exciting really interesting, exciting conversations with folks that had, you conversations with folks that had, you conversations with folks that had, you know, been successful earlier in their know, been successful earlier in their know, been successful earlier in their in their careers and were building their in their careers and were building their in their careers and were building their practices that kind of fit that and were practices that kind of fit that and were practices that kind of fit that and were showing some real interest in, you know, showing some real interest in, you know, showing some real interest in, you know, possibly joining our firm. Um, and so we possibly joining our firm. Um, and so we possibly joining our firm. Um, and so we decided, hey, let's go, um, uh, rent a decided, hey, let's go, um, uh, rent a decided, hey, let's go, um, uh, rent a large office and take on a multi-year large office and take on a multi-year large office and take on a multi-year commitment for thousands of dollars a commitment for thousands of dollars a commitment for thousands of dollars a month. month. month. » But let's cool, » But let's cool, » But let's cool, » but let's do it before we have » but let's do it before we have » but let's do it before we have commitments from any of those people. commitments from any of those people. commitments from any of those people. Um and we were running lean enough on Um and we were running lean enough on other overhead at the time that we were other overhead at the time that we were other overhead at the time that we were like, "Okay, you know, we can still like, "Okay, you know, we can still like, "Okay, you know, we can still swing it even if that other stuff swing it even if that other stuff swing it even if that other stuff doesn't work out." doesn't work out." doesn't work out." » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Um and so, uh we signed a lease like a » Um and so, uh we signed a lease like a » Um and so, uh we signed a lease like a week before lockdown started with co week before lockdown started with co week before lockdown started with co » I forgot about that. » I forgot about that. » I forgot about that. » And we'd all like to forget. I'm sorry » And we'd all like to forget. I'm sorry » And we'd all like to forget. I'm sorry for reminding you, but I I for reminding you, but I I for reminding you, but I I can still remember like walking out. It can still remember like walking out. It can still remember like walking out. It was a great space. It was beautiful. was a great space. It was beautiful. was a great space. It was beautiful. Tons of light, you know, Farm Credit Tons of light, you know, Farm Credit Tons of light, you know, Farm Credit Bank building downtown. You walk out, Bank building downtown. You walk out, Bank building downtown. You walk out, you see the river, you can see the you see the river, you can see the you see the river, you can see the keeper of the plains, you can see keeper of the plains, you can see keeper of the plains, you can see exploration place. And I remember exploration place. And I remember exploration place. And I remember walking out there with the realtor walking out there with the realtor walking out there with the realtor and, you know, you're not supposed to and, you know, you're not supposed to and, you know, you're not supposed to just like, you know, have your jaw drop just like, you know, have your jaw drop just like, you know, have your jaw drop down and be like, "Oh my god, I got to down and be like, "Oh my god, I got to down and be like, "Oh my god, I got to get into the space." But that's get into the space." But that's get into the space." But that's basically what we did. Um, and so he basically what we did. Um, and so he basically what we did. Um, and so he didn't even have to do the like, "Hey, didn't even have to do the like, "Hey, didn't even have to do the like, "Hey, what do I got to do to get you into this what do I got to do to get you into this what do I got to do to get you into this space?" You know, space?" You know, space?" You know, um, but yeah, that was a great um, but yeah, that was a great um, but yeah, that was a great opportunity. Really liked being in that opportunity. Really liked being in that opportunity. Really liked being in that space. We co-off there with Nexus space. We co-off there with Nexus space. We co-off there with Nexus and Network Kansas was hanging out uh and Network Kansas was hanging out uh and Network Kansas was hanging out uh had some of their people hanging out in had some of their people hanging out in had some of their people hanging out in there for a little while and um and they there for a little while and um and they there for a little while and um and they were just great neighbors. They do such were just great neighbors. They do such were just great neighbors. They do such great work um for our community in great work um for our community in great work um for our community in Witchaw and all across the state. Um but Witchaw and all across the state. Um but Witchaw and all across the state. Um but yeah. Yeah, lots of ups and downs and um yeah. Yeah, lots of ups and downs and um yeah. Yeah, lots of ups and downs and um uh one of the things so as co co really uh one of the things so as co co really uh one of the things so as co co really changed everything. Um, hi I'm Captain changed everything. Um, hi I'm Captain changed everything. Um, hi I'm Captain Obvious and this PSA is brought to you Obvious and this PSA is brought to you Obvious and this PSA is brought to you by um, but uh, what it did is it by um, but uh, what it did is it by um, but uh, what it did is it completely changed the consumer behavior completely changed the consumer behavior completely changed the consumer behavior of those attorneys that we thought we of those attorneys that we thought we of those attorneys that we thought we were going to get. were going to get. were going to get. » And so all of those folks that had early » And so all of those folks that had early » And so all of those folks that had early success in their careers and experienced success in their careers and experienced success in their careers and experienced those pain points, all of a sudden those pain points, all of a sudden those pain points, all of a sudden everything became much more about risk everything became much more about risk everything became much more about risk mitigation and management. And so which mitigation and management. And so which mitigation and management. And so which is totally understandable, right? It was is totally understandable, right? It was is totally understandable, right? It was a little bit late for those of us that a little bit late for those of us that a little bit late for those of us that were already out on the ice flow to were already out on the ice flow to were already out on the ice flow to to be like risk management. Yes, let's to be like risk management. Yes, let's to be like risk management. Yes, let's do that. Um, do that. Um, do that. Um, » let's get a bigger space now. » let's get a bigger space now. » let's get a bigger space now. » Um, and so » Um, and so » Um, and so uh yeah, so so we um uh so so uh almost uh yeah, so so we um uh so so uh almost uh yeah, so so we um uh so so uh almost none of the so none of the conversations none of the so none of the conversations none of the so none of the conversations that we thought were going to drive the that we thought were going to drive the that we thought were going to drive the growth of the firm ever came together. growth of the firm ever came together. growth of the firm ever came together. And um yeah, that was that was And um yeah, that was that was And um yeah, that was that was disappointing. That was frustrating. My disappointing. That was frustrating. My disappointing. That was frustrating. My own book was still continuing to grow. own book was still continuing to grow. own book was still continuing to grow. And so um and I didn't really know how And so um and I didn't really know how And so um and I didn't really know how to manage growth. And so, um, things to manage growth. And so, um, things to manage growth. And so, um, things would get busy and I would be spending would get busy and I would be spending would get busy and I would be spending lots of time working on like building lots of time working on like building lots of time working on like building out things I thought were going to be out things I thought were going to be out things I thought were going to be really helpful for the firm and doing really helpful for the firm and doing really helpful for the firm and doing things for the firm like bookkeeping, things for the firm like bookkeeping, things for the firm like bookkeeping, which for anyone who's listening, which for anyone who's listening, which for anyone who's listening, don't do your own bookkeeping. If you'd don't do your own bookkeeping. If you'd don't do your own bookkeeping. If you'd like to know how stupid it is and how like to know how stupid it is and how like to know how stupid it is and how much money you can destroy, let's get much money you can destroy, let's get much money you can destroy, let's get together. I'll bring the first $20 bill. together. I'll bring the first $20 bill. together. I'll bring the first $20 bill. We'll light it on fire together as an We'll light it on fire together as an We'll light it on fire together as an illustration. Um but uh uh illustration. Um but uh uh illustration. Um but uh uh you know doing a lot of things that you know doing a lot of things that you know doing a lot of things that weren't directly driving and generating weren't directly driving and generating weren't directly driving and generating revenue um and then would add people who revenue um and then would add people who revenue um and then would add people who seemed to have some interest but seemed to have some interest but seemed to have some interest but everybody was really young everybody was everybody was really young everybody was everybody was really young everybody was really inexperienced and so you know really inexperienced and so you know really inexperienced and so you know there was a lot of training there was a there was a lot of training there was a there was a lot of training there was a lot of supervision not all of which you lot of supervision not all of which you lot of supervision not all of which you know I could build for other people know I could build for other people know I could build for other people could build for um and so but then in could build for um and so but then in could build for um and so but then in COVID it also kind of recalibrated COVID it also kind of recalibrated COVID it also kind of recalibrated client you know consumer behavior client you know consumer behavior client you know consumer behavior everybody got a little bit tighter with everybody got a little bit tighter with everybody got a little bit tighter with some things right So even though we're some things right So even though we're some things right So even though we're still growing, it's not growing at still growing, it's not growing at still growing, it's not growing at exactly the pace. And and so exactly the pace. And and so exactly the pace. And and so [clears throat] that kind of set in [clears throat] that kind of set in [clears throat] that kind of set in motion some events where, you know, motion some events where, you know, motion some events where, you know, ultimately David needed to do different ultimately David needed to do different ultimately David needed to do different things for his family. Um which is ended things for his family. Um which is ended things for his family. Um which is ended up being a great move for him. You know, up being a great move for him. You know, up being a great move for him. You know, some other people moved on which ended some other people moved on which ended some other people moved on which ended up being good for them and for us. Um up being good for them and for us. Um up being good for them and for us. Um and it it you know and we also learned and it it you know and we also learned and it it you know and we also learned that our focus you know on a particular that our focus you know on a particular that our focus you know on a particular market segment which was the startup market segment which was the startup market segment which was the startup space while very gratifying on the space while very gratifying on the space while very gratifying on the personal side of things and work that personal side of things and work that personal side of things and work that was really enjoyable. I mean you got to was really enjoyable. I mean you got to was really enjoyable. I mean you got to work with really cool people work with really cool people work with really cool people doing stuff that it just made sense cuz doing stuff that it just made sense cuz doing stuff that it just made sense cuz you know for me my heart is very much you know for me my heart is very much you know for me my heart is very much invested in you know community outcomes. invested in you know community outcomes. invested in you know community outcomes. I mean if we can build thriving I mean if we can build thriving I mean if we can build thriving communities that's one of the things I I communities that's one of the things I I communities that's one of the things I I feel called to do in life. Um, but feel called to do in life. Um, but feel called to do in life. Um, but ultimately it just it just the business ultimately it just it just the business ultimately it just it just the business model didn't work. It was like there model didn't work. It was like there model didn't work. It was like there wasn't a large enough pool wasn't a large enough pool wasn't a large enough pool » and you had this mismatch of in many » and you had this mismatch of in many » and you had this mismatch of in many instances really complex needs, really instances really complex needs, really instances really complex needs, really low budgets and really limited low budgets and really limited low budgets and really limited experience. And so what we've learned is experience. And so what we've learned is experience. And so what we've learned is that so much of making, you know, that so much of making, you know, that so much of making, you know, creating value for people and exchanging creating value for people and exchanging creating value for people and exchanging value with clients in those settings is value with clients in those settings is value with clients in those settings is that when it involves things that are that when it involves things that are that when it involves things that are complex and people come with very complex and people come with very complex and people come with very limited experience and expertise is it limited experience and expertise is it limited experience and expertise is it just it ratchets up the amount of time just it ratchets up the amount of time just it ratchets up the amount of time and input that takes. and input that takes. and input that takes. » And so that can create big mismatches, » And so that can create big mismatches, » And so that can create big mismatches, right? At the same time, those right? At the same time, those right? At the same time, those businesses have lots of risk, a high businesses have lots of risk, a high businesses have lots of risk, a high failure rate, and everybody's got great failure rate, and everybody's got great failure rate, and everybody's got great aspirations and great ideas and we aspirations and great ideas and we aspirations and great ideas and we love that and we're very grateful to be love that and we're very grateful to be love that and we're very grateful to be a part of so many stories in that a part of so many stories in that a part of so many stories in that process. Um but ultimately it just we we process. Um but ultimately it just we we process. Um but ultimately it just we we hit a moment where I mean again God's hit a moment where I mean again God's hit a moment where I mean again God's fingerprints just on the story the whole fingerprints just on the story the whole fingerprints just on the story the whole time of um [clears throat] time of um [clears throat] time of um [clears throat] this sort of season where we had this sort of season where we had this sort of season where we had just a whole bunch of like no pays and just a whole bunch of like no pays and just a whole bunch of like no pays and slow pays like and it was very painful slow pays like and it was very painful slow pays like and it was very painful » and it was like you know I'm a little » and it was like you know I'm a little » and it was like you know I'm a little slow sometimes you know slow sometimes you know slow sometimes you know I don't I don't see the obvious all the I don't I don't see the obvious all the I don't I don't see the obvious all the time and it [clears throat] was like God time and it [clears throat] was like God time and it [clears throat] was like God just, you know, in his grace reaching in just, you know, in his grace reaching in just, you know, in his grace reaching in and being like, "Hey, I care about you and being like, "Hey, I care about you and being like, "Hey, I care about you enough to make this really clear for enough to make this really clear for enough to make this really clear for you." Like, this is not the direction you." Like, this is not the direction you." Like, this is not the direction that you need to be going right now. that you need to be going right now. that you need to be going right now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. » And that was really hard cuz it was like » And that was really hard cuz it was like » And that was really hard cuz it was like this big important piece of my identity this big important piece of my identity this big important piece of my identity and my business and my family is like and my business and my family is like and my business and my family is like » and you're a very creative dude already. » and you're a very creative dude already. » and you're a very creative dude already. So I could I mean you always it was So I could I mean you always it was So I could I mean you always it was pretty obvious you were drawn to idiots pretty obvious you were drawn to idiots pretty obvious you were drawn to idiots like me and that over complicated. like me and that over complicated. like me and that over complicated. » One of my favorite kind actually but » One of my favorite kind actually but » One of my favorite kind actually but » dollars. » dollars. » dollars. » But we I mean it was so cool to get to » But we I mean it was so cool to get to » But we I mean it was so cool to get to be you know in that kind of things. I be you know in that kind of things. I be you know in that kind of things. I mean I love solving problems. I love mean I love solving problems. I love mean I love solving problems. I love working with creative people. Um, and working with creative people. Um, and working with creative people. Um, and uh, uh, it was so much fun, but then it uh, uh, it was so much fun, but then it uh, uh, it was so much fun, but then it was just like getting having been it for was just like getting having been it for was just like getting having been it for long enough to then all of a sudden long enough to then all of a sudden long enough to then all of a sudden realize that like this doesn't work at realize that like this doesn't work at realize that like this doesn't work at scale, right? scale, right? scale, right? » And then to realize that there's a place » And then to realize that there's a place » And then to realize that there's a place for all of those things, but you have to for all of those things, but you have to for all of those things, but you have to learn where exactly like in my my learn where exactly like in my my learn where exactly like in my my instance where exactly that place is and instance where exactly that place is and instance where exactly that place is and learning where are the parts of that learning where are the parts of that learning where are the parts of that belong as a core part of your that belong as a core part of your that belong as a core part of your business. which of them belong as like a business. which of them belong as like a business. which of them belong as like a separate vertical and which of them separate vertical and which of them separate vertical and which of them belong in just an entirely different belong in just an entirely different belong in just an entirely different bucket alto together bucket alto together bucket alto together » where it's like hey this is something » where it's like hey this is something » where it's like hey this is something where I have to create a margin so then where I have to create a margin so then where I have to create a margin so then I can do this because I want to not I can do this because I want to not I can do this because I want to not because it's something that's part of because it's something that's part of because it's something that's part of what I need to do. what I need to do. what I need to do. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Right. If that makes sense. And um » Right. If that makes sense. And um » Right. If that makes sense. And um » yeah that was really tough. I mean like » yeah that was really tough. I mean like » yeah that was really tough. I mean like going through like that identity going through like that identity going through like that identity deconstruction um in some ways demolition. Um, and um in some ways demolition. Um, and um in some ways demolition. Um, and [clears throat] right around that time, [clears throat] right around that time, [clears throat] right around that time, so I had just come out of the stress of so I had just come out of the stress of so I had just come out of the stress of being overworked for an extended period being overworked for an extended period being overworked for an extended period of time, largely destroying my health. of time, largely destroying my health. of time, largely destroying my health. Um, uh, if I had my, you know what, Um, uh, if I had my, you know what, Um, uh, if I had my, you know what, together, I'd show you my my first together, I'd show you my my first together, I'd show you my my first profile picture from from profile picture from from profile picture from from starting my firm. starting my firm. starting my firm. » Um, » Um, » Um, many face rings ago. many face rings ago. many face rings ago. Uh and um Uh and um Uh and um uh you know then so then the stress uh you know then so then the stress uh you know then so then the stress and everything of starting the firm you and everything of starting the firm you and everything of starting the firm you know surviving and then co and I mean it know surviving and then co and I mean it know surviving and then co and I mean it really took a toll on my mental health really took a toll on my mental health really took a toll on my mental health like » I mean it was it was extreme and uh I » I mean it was it was extreme and uh I » I mean it was it was extreme and uh I had allowed myself to get into an had allowed myself to get into an had allowed myself to get into an unhealthy place and it really took me to unhealthy place and it really took me to unhealthy place and it really took me to um [clears throat] um [clears throat] um [clears throat] I mean it really took me to bottom. I I mean it really took me to bottom. I I mean it really took me to bottom. I mean, completely to the bottom and um to mean, completely to the bottom and um to mean, completely to the bottom and um to where like I was constantly like doom where like I was constantly like doom where like I was constantly like doom spiraling. Like little things would spiraling. Like little things would spiraling. Like little things would happen like I couldn't look in any happen like I couldn't look in any happen like I couldn't look in any direction in my practice, like literally direction in my practice, like literally direction in my practice, like literally almost any particular direction in my almost any particular direction in my almost any particular direction in my practice and go like I bet that's practice and go like I bet that's practice and go like I bet that's malpractice. malpractice. malpractice. Like I bet I've destroyed somebody's Like I bet I've destroyed somebody's Like I bet I've destroyed somebody's business. I bet I've ruined business. I bet I've ruined business. I bet I've ruined their life. I like this is going to their life. I like this is going to their life. I like this is going to be the end. be the end. be the end. » So this is how it ends like on a on » So this is how it ends like on a on » So this is how it ends like on a on a daily basis, right? And it's funny to a daily basis, right? And it's funny to a daily basis, right? And it's funny to joke about now and I mean I can laugh joke about now and I mean I can laugh joke about now and I mean I can laugh about it now but about it now but about it now but » it got so bad like and I didn't even » it got so bad like and I didn't even » it got so bad like and I didn't even really realize that like I I felt like I really realize that like I I felt like I really realize that like I I felt like I was it was so low at times where I was it was so low at times where I was it was so low at times where I was like I'm just I'm just lucky I have a like I'm just I'm just lucky I have a like I'm just I'm just lucky I have a law license today. Um which you know law license today. Um which you know law license today. Um which you know viewing all things properly we're all viewing all things properly we're all viewing all things properly we're all fortunate to get to do what we do and by fortunate to get to do what we do and by fortunate to get to do what we do and by the grace of God we get another day to the grace of God we get another day to the grace of God we get another day to do it. But but in the sense of like I do it. But but in the sense of like I do it. But but in the sense of like I felt like I didn't deserve or I didn't felt like I didn't deserve or I didn't felt like I didn't deserve or I didn't belong and um I really realized where it belong and um I really realized where it belong and um I really realized where it was and how bad it was. Uh and I'll was and how bad it was. Uh and I'll was and how bad it was. Uh and I'll never forget this moment until I never forget this moment until I never forget this moment until I completely lose all my marbles and then completely lose all my marbles and then completely lose all my marbles and then I'll forget everything. Um, but I was I'll forget everything. Um, but I was I'll forget everything. Um, but I was sitting down at the table uh in our sitting down at the table uh in our sitting down at the table uh in our kitchen and my wife is sitting down kitchen and my wife is sitting down kitchen and my wife is sitting down across from me and she just looks at me across from me and she just looks at me across from me and she just looks at me and she says, "Um, [clears throat] and she says, "Um, [clears throat] and she says, "Um, [clears throat] I don't even recognize you anymore I don't even recognize you anymore I don't even recognize you anymore » as the person that I married." » as the person that I married." » as the person that I married." And when your spouse loves you enough And when your spouse loves you enough And when your spouse loves you enough and it gets to that point where they're and it gets to that point where they're and it gets to that point where they're like, like you need help. Um, and I'm so like, like you need help. Um, and I'm so like, like you need help. Um, and I'm so glad she said that. I mean, that must glad she said that. I mean, that must glad she said that. I mean, that must have been hard for her. It was hard to have been hard for her. It was hard to have been hard for her. It was hard to hear. I'm like, I do need help. You hear. I'm like, I do need help. You hear. I'm like, I do need help. You know, I got in therapy and I worked it know, I got in therapy and I worked it know, I got in therapy and I worked it really hard. really hard. really hard. » And it changed my life, man. It was » And it changed my life, man. It was » And it changed my life, man. It was like, I need a professional to help me like, I need a professional to help me like, I need a professional to help me with this. This isn't the kind of thing with this. This isn't the kind of thing with this. This isn't the kind of thing that you just get so badly burned out that you just get so badly burned out that you just get so badly burned out and you've destroyed your physical and you've destroyed your physical and you've destroyed your physical health and you've been destroying your health and you've been destroying your health and you've been destroying your mental health and well-being and then mental health and well-being and then mental health and well-being and then just be like, I'll just work harder to just be like, I'll just work harder to just be like, I'll just work harder to get out of this. Like, get out of this. Like, get out of this. Like, excuse me. I've identified that the excuse me. I've identified that the excuse me. I've identified that the source of this is probably work. My source of this is probably work. My source of this is probably work. My solution is also to work harder. Yeah. solution is also to work harder. Yeah. solution is also to work harder. Yeah. » To, you know, » To, you know, » To, you know, » there's a big hole in the ship. I'm just » there's a big hole in the ship. I'm just » there's a big hole in the ship. I'm just going to keep ping buckets, going to keep ping buckets, going to keep ping buckets, » right? Which which my whole life, like » right? Which which my whole life, like » right? Which which my whole life, like » because of, you know, the gifts and » because of, you know, the gifts and » because of, you know, the gifts and capabilities that God's given me, I've capabilities that God's given me, I've capabilities that God's given me, I've been able to work my way out of things. been able to work my way out of things. been able to work my way out of things. And so my my solution has always been to And so my my solution has always been to And so my my solution has always been to work harder. Um, and God had to use that work harder. Um, and God had to use that work harder. Um, and God had to use that again to break me down and make me more again to break me down and make me more again to break me down and make me more humble, start to separate me from that humble, start to separate me from that humble, start to separate me from that identity that I was idolizing, that I identity that I was idolizing, that I identity that I was idolizing, that I was becoming imshed with, um, and get me was becoming imshed with, um, and get me was becoming imshed with, um, and get me through and pull me through and pull me through and pull me through and pull me through and pull me through and pull me into something, you know, different that into something, you know, different that into something, you know, different that he had for me. And, and so, you know, he had for me. And, and so, you know, he had for me. And, and so, you know, came through that. Then it's like, hey, came through that. Then it's like, hey, came through that. Then it's like, hey, the firm just doesn't have we're not the firm just doesn't have we're not the firm just doesn't have we're not going to do startup. you know, that was going to do startup. you know, that was going to do startup. you know, that was all kind of simultaneous with, hey, we all kind of simultaneous with, hey, we all kind of simultaneous with, hey, we need a sort of re, you know, pivot in need a sort of re, you know, pivot in need a sort of re, you know, pivot in the market. Where are we going to go? the market. Where are we going to go? the market. Where are we going to go? And so I'm like, okay, well, we're not And so I'm like, okay, well, we're not And so I'm like, okay, well, we're not going to focus on startup stuff. So, are going to focus on startup stuff. So, are going to focus on startup stuff. So, are we just another general business law we just another general business law we just another general business law firm? firm? firm? » That doesn't sound very exciting. And I » That doesn't sound very exciting. And I » That doesn't sound very exciting. And I I feel this calling. I feel this pull I feel this calling. I feel this pull I feel this calling. I feel this pull towards how do I make, you know, towards how do I make, you know, towards how do I make, you know, community better through the work that community better through the work that community better through the work that I'm doing? And like I I just don't have I'm doing? And like I I just don't have I'm doing? And like I I just don't have this connection. And and at the same this connection. And and at the same this connection. And and at the same time, we're like, well, we think we're time, we're like, well, we think we're time, we're like, well, we think we're pretty good at M&A stuff. I've been pretty good at M&A stuff. I've been pretty good at M&A stuff. I've been doing it all my whole career, so we got doing it all my whole career, so we got doing it all my whole career, so we got good experience to draw on. And um good experience to draw on. And um good experience to draw on. And um » mergers and acquisitions for those, » mergers and acquisitions for those, » mergers and acquisitions for those, » not to be confused with Murders and Axe » not to be confused with Murders and Axe » not to be confused with Murders and Axe Magicians, which we only do one Magicians, which we only do one Magicians, which we only do one » magician. » It's a longunning firm joke. Long » It's a longunning firm joke. Long running three years. We've tried it out running three years. We've tried it out running three years. We've tried it out occasionally. occasionally. occasionally. » Long running. It's going to land » Long running. It's going to land » Long running. It's going to land someday, someday, someday, » you know, but long running is what you » you know, but long running is what you » you know, but long running is what you do if an axe magician's after you. So, do if an axe magician's after you. So, do if an axe magician's after you. So, » um you get » um you get » um you get » great call back. » great call back. » great call back. » Yeah, thank you. » Yeah, thank you. » Yeah, thank you. Um but and so it was just kind of okay Um but and so it was just kind of okay Um but and so it was just kind of okay well we're doing M&A and the M&A was well we're doing M&A and the M&A was well we're doing M&A and the M&A was really good work you know really enjoyed really good work you know really enjoyed really good work you know really enjoyed it seem to be a need for it in the it seem to be a need for it in the it seem to be a need for it in the market good opportunity market good opportunity market good opportunity [clears throat] and so we started [clears throat] and so we started [clears throat] and so we started pursuing that and I'm like am I just pursuing that and I'm like am I just pursuing that and I'm like am I just doing this cuz it's good business right doing this cuz it's good business right doing this cuz it's good business right and then you know a day that kind of and then you know a day that kind of and then you know a day that kind of changed everything for me was changed everything for me was changed everything for me was um and it wasn't that I was like praying um and it wasn't that I was like praying um and it wasn't that I was like praying about it regularly cuz I I should have about it regularly cuz I I should have about it regularly cuz I I should have been doing that but I wasn't but I think been doing that but I wasn't but I think been doing that but I wasn't but I think God just kind of heard the cries of my God just kind of heard the cries of my God just kind of heard the cries of my heart on that and it was like one day it heart on that and it was like one day it heart on that and it was like one day it was just like hey you do realize what a was just like hey you do realize what a was just like hey you do realize what a difference this makes right and that's difference this makes right and that's difference this makes right and that's when like the calling and the career and when like the calling and the career and when like the calling and the career and everything really in its current everything really in its current everything really in its current iteration kind of clicked together for iteration kind of clicked together for iteration kind of clicked together for me [clears throat] me [clears throat] me [clears throat] » which was like when business ownership » which was like when business ownership » which was like when business ownership transitions happen and they happen transitions happen and they happen transitions happen and they happen really well. Um, like beautiful things really well. Um, like beautiful things really well. Um, like beautiful things happen for communities. Like you can happen for communities. Like you can happen for communities. Like you can when a when a family business in when a when a family business in when a when a family business in particular sells and it does it really particular sells and it does it really particular sells and it does it really well and they're well positioned and well and they're well positioned and well and they're well positioned and it's a successful transaction, like you it's a successful transaction, like you it's a successful transaction, like you can change a family's story for can change a family's story for can change a family's story for generations. generations. generations. » And when those don't happen well, you » And when those don't happen well, you » And when those don't happen well, you can change a family's story for can change a family's story for can change a family's story for generations. And not just that family, generations. And not just that family, generations. And not just that family, but the families of everybody that works but the families of everybody that works but the families of everybody that works for them and everybody that's impacted for them and everybody that's impacted for them and everybody that's impacted by them. Um, and so it's just it's by them. Um, and so it's just it's by them. Um, and so it's just it's brought this deep meaning that I don't brought this deep meaning that I don't brought this deep meaning that I don't feel like I deserved or earned um, uh, feel like I deserved or earned um, uh, feel like I deserved or earned um, uh, to my work, but I just love it. I mean, to my work, but I just love it. I mean, to my work, but I just love it. I mean, I love getting to be a part of these I love getting to be a part of these I love getting to be a part of these moments where you get to sit at the moments where you get to sit at the moments where you get to sit at the closing table with somebody that you've closing table with somebody that you've closing table with somebody that you've been working for months with on their been working for months with on their been working for months with on their deal and, you know, listen to them read deal and, you know, listen to them read deal and, you know, listen to them read a text from their children that are a text from their children that are a text from their children that are working with them in the business and working with them in the business and working with them in the business and you just get to see that like this is you just get to see that like this is you just get to see that like this is such a beautiful thing. Um, and uh, such a beautiful thing. Um, and uh, such a beautiful thing. Um, and uh, yeah, so I'm I'm really grateful for it. yeah, so I'm I'm really grateful for it. yeah, so I'm I'm really grateful for it. Um, and in the process, like our Um, and in the process, like our Um, and in the process, like our business has grown and we've, you know, business has grown and we've, you know, business has grown and we've, you know, really focused, you know, we've niched really focused, you know, we've niched really focused, you know, we've niched down into the M&A stuff. Like the it's down into the M&A stuff. Like the it's down into the M&A stuff. Like the it's weird. The business has grown, but the weird. The business has grown, but the weird. The business has grown, but the headcount has shrunk, which is this headcount has shrunk, which is this headcount has shrunk, which is this weird like ego conflict for me. Like, weird like ego conflict for me. Like, weird like ego conflict for me. Like, cuz everybody's nobody's going around be cuz everybody's nobody's going around be cuz everybody's nobody's going around be like, "Hey, like, "Hey, like, "Hey, » how much is your revenue out? » how much is your revenue out? » how much is your revenue out? » What's your headcount?" » What's your headcount?" » What's your headcount?" » Yeah. Everybody's like, "How many » Yeah. Everybody's like, "How many » Yeah. Everybody's like, "How many attorneys are you with right now?" Like, attorneys are you with right now?" Like, attorneys are you with right now?" Like, "Well, "Well, "Well, » less than the last time you asked." » less than the last time you asked." » less than the last time you asked." Yeah. Exactly. Measure success by the Yeah. Exactly. Measure success by the Yeah. Exactly. Measure success by the headcount. And it's it's like God headcount. And it's it's like God headcount. And it's it's like God separating that and going with like no separating that and going with like no separating that and going with like no » focus on the right things and swallow » focus on the right things and swallow » focus on the right things and swallow the ego. Like the ego. Like the ego. Like » but it's every industry though. It's not » but it's every industry though. It's not » but it's every industry though. It's not just that industry. I mean just that industry. I mean just that industry. I mean » even if you have a [clears throat] » even if you have a [clears throat] » even if you have a [clears throat] plumbing company like how many plumbers plumbing company like how many plumbers plumbing company like how many plumbers do you have, right? Cuz I think people do you have, right? Cuz I think people do you have, right? Cuz I think people work backwards from that because you're work backwards from that because you're work backwards from that because you're not going to tell them your revenue, not going to tell them your revenue, not going to tell them your revenue, » right? But they go oh you » right? But they go oh you » right? But they go oh you have five plumbers and then they kind of have five plumbers and then they kind of have five plumbers and then they kind of do the math of like what could a plumber do the math of like what could a plumber do the math of like what could a plumber bring a year, right? they can get close bring a year, right? they can get close bring a year, right? they can get close to to to » or they want to compare you based on the » or they want to compare you based on the » or they want to compare you based on the easy things, the vanity metrics and yeah easy things, the vanity metrics and yeah easy things, the vanity metrics and yeah » and that type of stuff. But I mean » and that type of stuff. But I mean » and that type of stuff. But I mean that's been like a constant through a that's been like a constant through a that's been like a constant through a consistent through line through my life consistent through line through my life consistent through line through my life is um is um is um you know this struggle with pride you know this struggle with pride you know this struggle with pride and you know it's interesting to reflect and you know it's interesting to reflect and you know it's interesting to reflect back on how interwoven that is with my back on how interwoven that is with my back on how interwoven that is with my business story of you know pride has led business story of you know pride has led business story of you know pride has led to many of the falls and the to many of the falls and the to many of the falls and the failures if you will but also you know failures if you will but also you know failures if you will but also you know because God's gracious all of the some because God's gracious all of the some because God's gracious all of the some of the most significant learning things of the most significant learning things of the most significant learning things probably the most significant ones have probably the most significant ones have probably the most significant ones have um because I've been willing to look up um because I've been willing to look up um because I've been willing to look up and reach up, you know, when I've been and reach up, you know, when I've been and reach up, you know, when I've been at the bottom. Um and then take that at the bottom. Um and then take that at the bottom. Um and then take that learning and put it to work. Um but that learning and put it to work. Um but that learning and put it to work. Um but that humility has been very [clears throat] humility has been very [clears throat] humility has been very [clears throat] painfully acquired. Um and it's it's a painfully acquired. Um and it's it's a painfully acquired. Um and it's it's a constant struggle, but it's constant struggle, but it's constant struggle, but it's » by design. I think I think humility » by design. I think I think humility » by design. I think I think humility always comes with always comes with always comes with » pain or pain leads to humility. And » pain or pain leads to humility. And » pain or pain leads to humility. And those that don't take pain into those that don't take pain into those that don't take pain into humility, take it into rage and anger, humility, take it into rage and anger, humility, take it into rage and anger, and » you know, they get closeed-minded, and » you know, they get closeed-minded, and » you know, they get closeed-minded, and that's I've seen it so many times. Uh, that's I've seen it so many times. Uh, that's I've seen it so many times. Uh, and then I've also thankfully been and then I've also thankfully been and then I've also thankfully been around people like you that around people like you that around people like you that » the majority of people I've seen, they » the majority of people I've seen, they » the majority of people I've seen, they come out wiser, stronger. I just had come out wiser, stronger. I just had come out wiser, stronger. I just had Trevor Crotz on the podcast. Trevor Crotz on the podcast. Trevor Crotz on the podcast. » Oh, yeah. » Oh, yeah. » Oh, yeah. » Right. And we I told him I'm like, "Man, » Right. And we I told him I'm like, "Man, » Right. And we I told him I'm like, "Man, your grit I I remember your grit and now your grit I I remember your grit and now your grit I I remember your grit and now you seem like so you seem like so you seem like so » kind of balanced and focused now." » kind of balanced and focused now." » kind of balanced and focused now." Right. He just run through walls, didn't Right. He just run through walls, didn't Right. He just run through walls, didn't not look for another way around the not look for another way around the not look for another way around the wall, just head down. wall, just head down. wall, just head down. » And I think everyone does that at some » And I think everyone does that at some » And I think everyone does that at some point. You just think you're invincible point. You just think you're invincible point. You just think you're invincible until And he had a good point. He's until And he had a good point. He's until And he had a good point. He's like, "Well, then all sudden you hit a like, "Well, then all sudden you hit a like, "Well, then all sudden you hit a wall that you don't go through and then wall that you don't go through and then wall that you don't go through and then you're like, oh, wait, hold on. Is can I you're like, oh, wait, hold on. Is can I you're like, oh, wait, hold on. Is can I go over it or under it or around it?" go over it or under it or around it?" go over it or under it or around it?" And » yeah, » yeah, » yeah, » that's just the process. I think your » that's just the process. I think your » that's just the process. I think your 20s or and your early 30s, same thing. 20s or and your early 30s, same thing. 20s or and your early 30s, same thing. And everyone hits at a different place, And everyone hits at a different place, And everyone hits at a different place, but » I can relate to that very much. Um, » I can relate to that very much. Um, » I can relate to that very much. Um, thanks for sharing the bottoms. I thanks for sharing the bottoms. I thanks for sharing the bottoms. I think the bottoms are important and think the bottoms are important and think the bottoms are important and » the lowest times are » the lowest times are » the lowest times are » bring out the best version of ourselves » bring out the best version of ourselves » bring out the best version of ourselves and we avoid it for [clears throat] so and we avoid it for [clears throat] so and we avoid it for [clears throat] so long, right? We just push it back. We long, right? We just push it back. We long, right? We just push it back. We push it back and we just assume push it back and we just assume push it back and we just assume everything's okay and then to your everything's okay and then to your everything's okay and then to your point, your method was point, your method was point, your method was » work it out. Um, work more, push harder, » work it out. Um, work more, push harder, » work it out. Um, work more, push harder, and just keep and just keep and just keep » water's going to the leak is still » water's going to the leak is still » water's going to the leak is still there, but I'm I'm just going to go at there, but I'm I'm just going to go at there, but I'm I'm just going to go at it. And then as you get older, I do feel it. And then as you get older, I do feel it. And then as you get older, I do feel like there's like this settling and the like there's like this settling and the like there's like this settling and the ego thing and the head count. And ego thing and the head count. And ego thing and the head count. And » you just get to a point where you're » you just get to a point where you're » you just get to a point where you're like, I want my life to be this way and like, I want my life to be this way and like, I want my life to be this way and I'm going to build it around what I want I'm going to build it around what I want I'm going to build it around what I want my life to be, which is another line my life to be, which is another line my life to be, which is another line I'll steal from Trevor. That was a good I'll steal from Trevor. That was a good I'll steal from Trevor. That was a good line. Like he's like, I'm an good line. Like he's like, I'm an good line. Like he's like, I'm an entrepreneur so I can live the life I entrepreneur so I can live the life I entrepreneur so I can live the life I want, right? So I pick my kids up at want, right? So I pick my kids up at want, right? So I pick my kids up at school. I can travel without worrying school. I can travel without worrying school. I can travel without worrying about taking time off. And what does about taking time off. And what does about taking time off. And what does that do to the business or to my job and that do to the business or to my job and that do to the business or to my job and my position? Is it okay if I decide to my position? Is it okay if I decide to my position? Is it okay if I decide to go to Colorado twice a year instead of go to Colorado twice a year instead of go to Colorado twice a year instead of once a year? Yeah, once a year? Yeah, once a year? Yeah, » you get those opportunities in » you get those opportunities in » you get those opportunities in entrepreneurship. And if you think entrepreneurship. And if you think entrepreneurship. And if you think » on the outcome side, and I will say on » on the outcome side, and I will say on » on the outcome side, and I will say on your new purpose, like with the uh your new purpose, like with the uh your new purpose, like with the uh mergers and acquisitions, mergers and acquisitions, mergers and acquisitions, » like why else are we doing it? You » like why else are we doing it? You » like why else are we doing it? You know what I mean? And I'm I'm the most know what I mean? And I'm I'm the most know what I mean? And I'm I'm the most guilty. Why else are we doing it? Well, guilty. Why else are we doing it? Well, guilty. Why else are we doing it? Well, the I mean I feel like the only other the I mean I feel like the only other the I mean I feel like the only other reason you're doing it if that if that's reason you're doing it if that if that's reason you're doing it if that if that's not in your plan and you're not thinking not in your plan and you're not thinking not in your plan and you're not thinking through how you can be removed, then through how you can be removed, then through how you can be removed, then your identity is wrapped up into it and your identity is wrapped up into it and your identity is wrapped up into it and that's okay, right? If it's like a that's okay, right? If it's like a that's okay, right? If it's like a nonprofit or you literally've got a nonprofit or you literally've got a nonprofit or you literally've got a mission to change, you know, you got a mission to change, you know, you got a mission to change, you know, you got a medical device that's going to cure medical device that's going to cure medical device that's going to cure cancer, you're going to give your whole cancer, you're going to give your whole cancer, you're going to give your whole life to it, and you don't care about a life to it, and you don't care about a life to it, and you don't care about a dollar, dollar, dollar, » right? Uh and your time's wrapped up in » right? Uh and your time's wrapped up in » right? Uh and your time's wrapped up in that. I do think some people just have that. I do think some people just have that. I do think some people just have a, a, a, » you know, a calling and they're all in » you know, a calling and they're all in » you know, a calling and they're all in on it. My dad's a pastor and he was all on it. My dad's a pastor and he was all on it. My dad's a pastor and he was all in on that and never made a dollar, in on that and never made a dollar, in on that and never made a dollar, right? right? right? » And there is no succession plan and » And there is no succession plan and » And there is no succession plan and there is nothing to take with him after. there is nothing to take with him after. there is nothing to take with him after. Um, but there's it's everything to him, Um, but there's it's everything to him, Um, but there's it's everything to him, right? This is identity and calling, right? This is identity and calling, right? This is identity and calling, » right? » right? » right? » Um, and that's still hard. You have to » Um, and that's still hard. You have to » Um, and that's still hard. You have to learn how to separate that. But I I I am learn how to separate that. But I I I am learn how to separate that. But I I I am very guilty of saying that my identity very guilty of saying that my identity very guilty of saying that my identity is in this and so therefore my is in this and so therefore my is in this and so therefore my fulfillment's in this and my purpose is fulfillment's in this and my purpose is fulfillment's in this and my purpose is in this. And John Bakura, can you say in this. And John Bakura, can you say in this. And John Bakura, can you say his last name for me? his last name for me? his last name for me? » Bakira. » Bakira. » Bakira. » Bakira. Thank you. » Bakira. Thank you. » Bakira. Thank you. » Yeah, » Yeah, » Yeah, » John Picura. There you go, John. I know » John Picura. There you go, John. I know » John Picura. There you go, John. I know you'll listen to this one. you'll listen to this one. you'll listen to this one. » Um, yeah, I think when that identity » Um, yeah, I think when that identity » Um, yeah, I think when that identity gets separated, and you guys have been gets separated, and you guys have been gets separated, and you guys have been hanging out for a while now, and he's hanging out for a while now, and he's hanging out for a while now, and he's he's big on that, separating that he's big on that, separating that he's big on that, separating that identity. When it does get separated, identity. When it does get separated, identity. When it does get separated, there's like this level of anxiety and there's like this level of anxiety and there's like this level of anxiety and performance-based performance-based performance-based um growth that just kind of goes away. um growth that just kind of goes away. um growth that just kind of goes away. Like I I don't think when I enjoy Like I I don't think when I enjoy Like I I don't think when I enjoy going home and I can't wait to go home going home and I can't wait to go home going home and I can't wait to go home or I can't wait to go be with my friends or I can't wait to go be with my friends or I can't wait to go be with my friends or I can't wait to go to Colorado. or I can't wait to go to Colorado. or I can't wait to go to Colorado. » Uh and I'm not thinking obsessing over » Uh and I'm not thinking obsessing over » Uh and I'm not thinking obsessing over this like everything is so much easier this like everything is so much easier this like everything is so much easier anxiety level. And even when I come back anxiety level. And even when I come back anxiety level. And even when I come back to the business, it's like yeah, I'm to the business, it's like yeah, I'm to the business, it's like yeah, I'm here for this. It's it's not everything here for this. It's it's not everything here for this. It's it's not everything though. Like though. Like though. Like » like it's going to have bad days. It's » like it's going to have bad days. It's » like it's going to have bad days. It's going to have bad months. I'm going to going to have bad months. I'm going to going to have bad months. I'm going to screw up again. Guaranteed. screw up again. Guaranteed. screw up again. Guaranteed. » Yeah, » Yeah, » Yeah, » probably tomorrow. » probably tomorrow. » probably tomorrow. » Yeah, probably today. » Yeah, probably today. » Yeah, probably today. Probably already happened. I don't even Probably already happened. I don't even Probably already happened. I don't even know it. probably sent an email I know it. probably sent an email I know it. probably sent an email I shouldn't have. Who knows? shouldn't have. Who knows? shouldn't have. Who knows? » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » But yeah, that's good. Um, can we talk » But yeah, that's good. Um, can we talk » But yeah, that's good. Um, can we talk about uh you talked about the about uh you talked about the about uh you talked about the traditional method and that goal was traditional method and that goal was traditional method and that goal was like a lifestyle for attorneys maybe to like a lifestyle for attorneys maybe to like a lifestyle for attorneys maybe to make more money. make more money. make more money. » So, I'd love to know like the OG » So, I'd love to know like the OG » So, I'd love to know like the OG Sam of Sam of Sam of » I'm going to leave a maybe a traditional » I'm going to leave a maybe a traditional » I'm going to leave a maybe a traditional concept and build something different. concept and build something different. concept and build something different. » Maybe go into details of what you » Maybe go into details of what you » Maybe go into details of what you thought that was then and maybe what it thought that was then and maybe what it thought that was then and maybe what it is now for you. is now for you. is now for you. » Yeah. Yeah. So when I say the » Yeah. Yeah. So when I say the » Yeah. Yeah. So when I say the traditional law firm model, um that is a traditional law firm model, um that is a traditional law firm model, um that is a traditional partner and associate sort traditional partner and associate sort traditional partner and associate sort of pyramid. Um and it's where the of pyramid. Um and it's where the of pyramid. Um and it's where the partners are at the top, they own the partners are at the top, they own the partners are at the top, they own the firm, the associates are the employees firm, the associates are the employees firm, the associates are the employees kind of at the bottom. And there's kind of at the bottom. And there's kind of at the bottom. And there's there's many variations of this um there's many variations of this um there's many variations of this um depending on the firm, but the depending on the firm, but the depending on the firm, but the traditional path is you get in as an traditional path is you get in as an traditional path is you get in as an associate, you get trained by the associate, you get trained by the associate, you get trained by the partners, you work really hard, partners, you work really hard, partners, you work really hard, um and you create, you know, for through um and you create, you know, for through um and you create, you know, for through the first however many years of your the first however many years of your the first however many years of your career, you are making money for other career, you are making money for other career, you are making money for other people. And then in the second part of people. And then in the second part of people. And then in the second part of your career, whenever that begins, your career, whenever that begins, your career, whenever that begins, you at some point start to phase into at some point start to phase into at some point start to phase into transitioning to transitioning to transitioning to um making money off of other people. um making money off of other people. um making money off of other people. » Y » Y » Y » and um but the traditional internal » and um but the traditional internal » and um but the traditional internal dynamics » that's when you become partner. » that's when you become partner. » that's when you become partner. » Yeah. When you become uh when you at » Yeah. When you become uh when you at » Yeah. When you become uh when you at some point usually after you become some point usually after you become some point usually after you become partners where that really begins partners where that really begins partners where that really begins because there's usually a phased because there's usually a phased because there's usually a phased approach in larger firms at least approach in larger firms at least approach in larger firms at least » where it doesn't like always just right » where it doesn't like always just right » where it doesn't like always just right then begin. Some of them it's like hey then begin. Some of them it's like hey then begin. Some of them it's like hey we just want to maintain your we just want to maintain your we just want to maintain your compensation the way it was as an compensation the way it was as an compensation the way it was as an associate until you get to this associate until you get to this associate until you get to this particular point that particular point particular point that particular point particular point that particular point and so on and so forth. Um and so on and so forth. Um and so on and so forth. Um traditional firms tend to carry lots of traditional firms tend to carry lots of traditional firms tend to carry lots of overhead um relative to their size, big overhead um relative to their size, big overhead um relative to their size, big expensive offices, lots of staff, you expensive offices, lots of staff, you expensive offices, lots of staff, you know, lots of other things. And uh know, lots of other things. And uh know, lots of other things. And uh financially don't tend to financially don't tend to financially don't tend to um have very precise tracking and um have very precise tracking and um have very precise tracking and matching of overhead to um profits. And matching of overhead to um profits. And matching of overhead to um profits. And so and there's many reasons for that. so and there's many reasons for that. so and there's many reasons for that. Some of them I think are entirely re Some of them I think are entirely re Some of them I think are entirely re reasonable and just different reasonable and just different reasonable and just different perspectives and some of them I think perspectives and some of them I think perspectives and some of them I think are just not well thought out. Um and so are just not well thought out. Um and so are just not well thought out. Um and so what that does from my perspective is it what that does from my perspective is it what that does from my perspective is it ends up destroying culture many times by ends up destroying culture many times by ends up destroying culture many times by institutionalizing animosity. Um because institutionalizing animosity. Um because institutionalizing animosity. Um because you have this constant friction between you have this constant friction between you have this constant friction between people that are constantly fighting over people that are constantly fighting over people that are constantly fighting over something that's unpredictable. Um something that's unpredictable. Um something that's unpredictable. Um because then you get to the end of the because then you get to the end of the because then you get to the end of the year and then the comp committee says, year and then the comp committee says, year and then the comp committee says, "Hey, here's what it is. Here's what you "Hey, here's what it is. Here's what you "Hey, here's what it is. Here's what you made." or um you get points, but your made." or um you get points, but your made." or um you get points, but your points are determined before your points are determined before your points are determined before your production occurs. Um and so it just you production occurs. Um and so it just you production occurs. Um and so it just you could have a killer year could have a killer year could have a killer year and it not really make that much of a and it not really make that much of a and it not really make that much of a difference or make no difference, right? difference or make no difference, right? difference or make no difference, right? Like imagine how demotivating that is to Like imagine how demotivating that is to Like imagine how demotivating that is to watch your peers or your, you know, watch your peers or your, you know, watch your peers or your, you know, other people profit off of you in ways other people profit off of you in ways other people profit off of you in ways that, that, that, » you know, don't seem to have been » you know, don't seem to have been » you know, don't seem to have been matched equitably. And there's many matched equitably. And there's many matched equitably. And there's many obviously many nuances to it, but um so obviously many nuances to it, but um so obviously many nuances to it, but um so that's that's sort of the traditional that's that's sort of the traditional that's that's sort of the traditional model. Um [clears throat] model. Um [clears throat] model. Um [clears throat] and I don't so for some people works out and I don't so for some people works out and I don't so for some people works out great. Um you know, for some people it's great. Um you know, for some people it's great. Um you know, for some people it's just kind of, you know, it's just kind just kind of, you know, it's just kind just kind of, you know, it's just kind of a mediocre experience. Uh and for of a mediocre experience. Uh and for of a mediocre experience. Uh and for some people it's a terrible experience. some people it's a terrible experience. some people it's a terrible experience. There's so many people that burn out of There's so many people that burn out of There's so many people that burn out of especially larger law firms. There's especially larger law firms. There's especially larger law firms. There's really high turnover among younger really high turnover among younger really high turnover among younger attorneys. Um, and but what I attorneys. Um, and but what I attorneys. Um, and but what I wanted to do when I started my firm was wanted to do when I started my firm was wanted to do when I started my firm was to have, you know, really high degree of to have, you know, really high degree of to have, you know, really high degree of autonomy, like remove a lot of the autonomy, like remove a lot of the autonomy, like remove a lot of the command and control structure that I command and control structure that I command and control structure that I didn't think made sense. Um, you know, didn't think made sense. Um, you know, didn't think made sense. Um, you know, start pushing a lot of those decisions start pushing a lot of those decisions start pushing a lot of those decisions down to the individual attorney level so down to the individual attorney level so down to the individual attorney level so that people could move more quickly. that people could move more quickly. that people could move more quickly. There's some stuff that just didn't need There's some stuff that just didn't need There's some stuff that just didn't need to go be run through some, you know, to go be run through some, you know, to go be run through some, you know, decision hierarchy. um and decision hierarchy. um and decision hierarchy. um and [clears throat] have the financial model [clears throat] have the financial model [clears throat] have the financial model structured to where it was much more of structured to where it was much more of structured to where it was much more of a matching and much more transparent and a matching and much more transparent and a matching and much more transparent and predictable to where it's like hey you predictable to where it's like hey you predictable to where it's like hey you know what your overhead your base know what your overhead your base know what your overhead your base overhead's going to be and you know hey overhead's going to be and you know hey overhead's going to be and you know hey if I work and collect on this much if I work and collect on this much if I work and collect on this much that's what I get paid on that if I that's what I get paid on that if I that's what I get paid on that if I manage it then this is what I get paid manage it then this is what I get paid manage it then this is what I get paid and then if I bring it in this is what I and then if I bring it in this is what I and then if I bring it in this is what I get paid get paid get paid » and so all of that then creates this » and so all of that then creates this » and so all of that then creates this transparency and predictability and this transparency and predictability and this transparency and predictability and do it in as close to real time like on a do it in as close to real time like on a do it in as close to real time like on a monthly basis rather than you know monthly basis rather than you know monthly basis rather than you know traditional model is frequently like an traditional model is frequently like an traditional model is frequently like an annualized basis which removes the annualized basis which removes the annualized basis which removes the incentive so far from the value creating incentive so far from the value creating incentive so far from the value creating activities that you have people not activities that you have people not activities that you have people not paying attention to their invoices for paying attention to their invoices for paying attention to their invoices for » months on end until December rolls » months on end until December rolls » months on end until December rolls around they're like ah my numbers don't around they're like ah my numbers don't around they're like ah my numbers don't look very good and so then they start look very good and so then they start look very good and so then they start chasing around clients around Christmas chasing around clients around Christmas chasing around clients around Christmas time being like hey I know that um you time being like hey I know that um you time being like hey I know that um you know your kids probably are looking for know your kids probably are looking for know your kids probably are looking for new bikes and video games and stuff but new bikes and video games and stuff but new bikes and video games and stuff but I am also so looking to get paid right I am also so looking to get paid right I am also so looking to get paid right now. Yeah. now. Yeah. now. Yeah. » Um and then discounting their bills and » Um and then discounting their bills and » Um and then discounting their bills and everything like that. And so everything like that. And so everything like that. And so » um so you so so there's just so those » um so you so so there's just so those » um so you so so there's just so those were just some opportunities we we felt were just some opportunities we we felt were just some opportunities we we felt like we observed that you know for the like we observed that you know for the like we observed that you know for the right set of people and certainly for me right set of people and certainly for me right set of people and certainly for me you would be a better model and you would be a better model and you would be a better model and make more sense and so and keep really make more sense and so and keep really make more sense and so and keep really lean overhead like we we have never lean overhead like we we have never lean overhead like we we have never carried very much staff outside of the carried very much staff outside of the carried very much staff outside of the large lease that we had. We've never large lease that we had. We've never large lease that we had. We've never carried individually significant carried individually significant carried individually significant overhead on stuff. And that margin that overhead on stuff. And that margin that overhead on stuff. And that margin that creates works really, really hard that creates works really, really hard that creates works really, really hard for you for you for you » when you go from, you know, our model » when you go from, you know, our model » when you go from, you know, our model probably has, probably has, probably has, I don't know, maybe half the overhead I don't know, maybe half the overhead I don't know, maybe half the overhead that like a traditional one does. Um, that like a traditional one does. Um, that like a traditional one does. Um, but we're not looking to cut rates as a but we're not looking to cut rates as a but we're not looking to cut rates as a result. I mean, we're looking to be more result. I mean, we're looking to be more result. I mean, we're looking to be more focused on the work that we do, and that focused on the work that we do, and that focused on the work that we do, and that allows that because we are less allows that because we are less allows that because we are less susceptible to the pressures of I've got susceptible to the pressures of I've got susceptible to the pressures of I've got to take everything I possibly can to take everything I possibly can to take everything I possibly can because I've got such a high overhead, because I've got such a high overhead, because I've got such a high overhead, right? which in the long run allows you right? which in the long run allows you right? which in the long run allows you to more consistently do the highest to more consistently do the highest to more consistently do the highest value work, be more choosy on the value work, be more choosy on the value work, be more choosy on the clients that you got, which gets you clients that you got, which gets you clients that you got, which gets you better collection rates, create more better collection rates, create more better collection rates, create more value for people, exchange more value for people, exchange more value for people, exchange more value with people. Um, and then be able to with people. Um, and then be able to with people. Um, and then be able to return more of that time and more of the return more of that time and more of the return more of that time and more of the produce of your labors to your family produce of your labors to your family produce of your labors to your family and your community. Um, but it takes, and your community. Um, but it takes, and your community. Um, but it takes, you know, a lot of discipline and a lot you know, a lot of discipline and a lot you know, a lot of discipline and a lot of long-term and then just a lot of, you of long-term and then just a lot of, you of long-term and then just a lot of, you know, God's good grace, you know, for know, God's good grace, you know, for know, God's good grace, you know, for all of us. But um uh and that's that all of us. But um uh and that's that all of us. But um uh and that's that model has remained pretty consistent model has remained pretty consistent model has remained pretty consistent throughout the entire time we've been as throughout the entire time we've been as throughout the entire time we've been as a firm. I love it. It's very a firm. I love it. It's very a firm. I love it. It's very predictable. It's very transparent. Um predictable. It's very transparent. Um predictable. It's very transparent. Um our culture has gone through various our culture has gone through various our culture has gone through various adaptations of you know too high adaptations of you know too high adaptations of you know too high autonomy which you know too much autonomy which you know too much autonomy which you know too much autonomy can create chaos. um to autonomy can create chaos. um to autonomy can create chaos. um to excuse me to uh rebalancing to where excuse me to uh rebalancing to where excuse me to uh rebalancing to where it's a little bit better of um we were it's a little bit better of um we were it's a little bit better of um we were we were empowering people with decisions we were empowering people with decisions we were empowering people with decisions they didn't actually want to make they didn't actually want to make they didn't actually want to make » andor creating a lack of consistency » andor creating a lack of consistency » andor creating a lack of consistency that created bad uh not bad but um that created bad uh not bad but um that created bad uh not bad but um suboptimal habits or didn't optimize for suboptimal habits or didn't optimize for suboptimal habits or didn't optimize for some of the better things long term. And some of the better things long term. And some of the better things long term. And so finding for us anyway, here's the so finding for us anyway, here's the so finding for us anyway, here's the things where it's like, hey, this isn't things where it's like, hey, this isn't things where it's like, hey, this isn't really an autonomy thing. This is a this really an autonomy thing. This is a this really an autonomy thing. This is a this is the way we have to do it in order for is the way we have to do it in order for is the way we have to do it in order for this bigger picture thing that we all this bigger picture thing that we all this bigger picture thing that we all care so much about to work. So care so much about to work. So care so much about to work. So » talk about efficiencies, overhead and uh » talk about efficiencies, overhead and uh » talk about efficiencies, overhead and uh [clears throat] [clears throat] [clears throat] AI AI AI » combination. He's like, "No, I » combination. He's like, "No, I » combination. He's like, "No, I don't want to." I I'm don't want to." I I'm don't want to." I I'm assuming this day and age, you talk assuming this day and age, you talk assuming this day and age, you talk about co changed a lot. I'm assuming AI about co changed a lot. I'm assuming AI about co changed a lot. I'm assuming AI is is is » probably one of the biggest changes in » probably one of the biggest changes in » probably one of the biggest changes in your industry that maybe you'll see in your industry that maybe you'll see in your industry that maybe you'll see in your career or is that farfetched? Uh, your career or is that farfetched? Uh, your career or is that farfetched? Uh, no. I don't think that's far-fetched. I no. I don't think that's far-fetched. I no. I don't think that's far-fetched. I don't think it's going to look like what don't think it's going to look like what don't think it's going to look like what most people think it's going to look most people think it's going to look most people think it's going to look like. like. like. » What's it gonna What do most people » What's it gonna What do most people » What's it gonna What do most people think it's going to look like? think it's going to look like? think it's going to look like? » Well, I shouldn't say that. That sounds » Well, I shouldn't say that. That sounds » Well, I shouldn't say that. That sounds like I have more research and knowledge like I have more research and knowledge like I have more research and knowledge than I have. I hear a lot of um than I have. I hear a lot of um than I have. I hear a lot of um people panicking about displacement, people panicking about displacement, people panicking about displacement, and I just don't think that's going to and I just don't think that's going to and I just don't think that's going to occur » because I think people are thinking » because I think people are thinking » because I think people are thinking about it wrong. Um, but AI is is very about it wrong. Um, but AI is is very about it wrong. Um, but AI is is very helpful. I think it's a very useful tool helpful. I think it's a very useful tool helpful. I think it's a very useful tool for creating value when it's properly for creating value when it's properly for creating value when it's properly applied. And I think it's it's applied. And I think it's it's applied. And I think it's it's marvelously effective at destroying marvelously effective at destroying marvelously effective at destroying value when it's and consuming value when value when it's and consuming value when value when it's and consuming value when it's improperly applied. Um, and we've it's improperly applied. Um, and we've it's improperly applied. Um, and we've seen lots of instances of that in our seen lots of instances of that in our seen lots of instances of that in our field of people using it well, people field of people using it well, people field of people using it well, people using it poorly. Um, permission to using it poorly. Um, permission to using it poorly. Um, permission to ramble on AI theory for a moment. Well, ramble on AI theory for a moment. Well, ramble on AI theory for a moment. Well, let's go. Granted. let's go. Granted. let's go. Granted. » Granted, Sam, » Granted, Sam, » Granted, Sam, » I had no idea where to take this » I had no idea where to take this » I had no idea where to take this conversation if you said no. Um, conversation if you said no. Um, conversation if you said no. Um, [clears throat] [clears throat] [clears throat] » I I think it requires having the right » I I think it requires having the right » I I think it requires having the right mental framework around value creation mental framework around value creation mental framework around value creation before you even get to AI. I think many before you even get to AI. I think many before you even get to AI. I think many people look at AI and they think about people look at AI and they think about people look at AI and they think about its impacts primarily through a static its impacts primarily through a static its impacts primarily through a static understanding of functions and understanding of functions and understanding of functions and substitutes. like they look at okay a substitutes. like they look at okay a substitutes. like they look at okay a human does X AI human does X AI human does X AI you know can do that more efficiently or you know can do that more efficiently or you know can do that more efficiently or more effectively therefore it's going to more effectively therefore it's going to more effectively therefore it's going to replace those people and then they stop replace those people and then they stop replace those people and then they stop and it's like oh holy you know whatever and it's like oh holy you know whatever and it's like oh holy you know whatever expletives or string of expletives you expletives or string of expletives you expletives or string of expletives you can fill in there can fill in there can fill in there » um that's bad and so that's going to » um that's bad and so that's going to » um that's bad and so that's going to displace and so that's going to disrupt displace and so that's going to disrupt displace and so that's going to disrupt and all of that's going to occur and all of that's going to occur and all of that's going to occur and some of that is occurring and some of some of that is occurring and some of some of that is occurring and some of that is going to continue to occur but that is going to continue to occur but that is going to continue to occur but that's not the entirety of the story and that's not the entirety of the story and that's not the entirety of the story and I don't think that's the better way to I don't think that's the better way to I don't think that's the better way to look at it. Um I think the better way to look at it. Um I think the better way to look at it. Um I think the better way to look at it is to look at it is to look at it is to uh and part of it is is not getting uh and part of it is is not getting uh and part of it is is not getting lost on the specific scenario which is lost on the specific scenario which is lost on the specific scenario which is hey AI and what is it going to do but is hey AI and what is it going to do but is hey AI and what is it going to do but is to remember is to is to not lose sight to remember is to is to not lose sight to remember is to is to not lose sight of the broader context right and for us of the broader context right and for us of the broader context right and for us as humans I think it's we are put here as humans I think it's we are put here as humans I think it's we are put here to create value um and value is to create value um and value is to create value um and value is inherently subjective for every single inherently subjective for every single inherently subjective for every single person um like from a you know the person um like from a you know the person um like from a you know the perspective of Christ followers you know perspective of Christ followers you know perspective of Christ followers you know God put you God put you God put you to do specific good works, right? And to do specific good works, right? And to do specific good works, right? And many other things, but to do things. And many other things, but to do things. And many other things, but to do things. And that is for I think a good way to think that is for I think a good way to think that is for I think a good way to think about value is what are those good works about value is what are those good works about value is what are those good works and how do I do as much of that as and how do I do as much of that as and how do I do as much of that as possible, possible, possible, » right? Um and so everybody's value » right? Um and so everybody's value » right? Um and so everybody's value scorecard looks a little bit different. scorecard looks a little bit different. scorecard looks a little bit different. Um and so but there so so value is Um and so but there so so value is Um and so but there so so value is highly subjective. It's not static. It's highly subjective. It's not static. It's highly subjective. It's not static. It's not fixed. Um and there is potentially not fixed. Um and there is potentially not fixed. Um and there is potentially limitless amounts of value to be limitless amounts of value to be limitless amounts of value to be created. um which has been proven out created. um which has been proven out created. um which has been proven out you know just ad nauseium throughout our you know just ad nauseium throughout our you know just ad nauseium throughout our history as you know as humans here on history as you know as humans here on history as you know as humans here on earth. And so when you understand that earth. And so when you understand that earth. And so when you understand that it's potentially limitless and it's it's potentially limitless and it's it's potentially limitless and it's highly subjective highly subjective highly subjective um and then you see the introduction of um and then you see the introduction of um and then you see the introduction of a new tool that um does so many things. a new tool that um does so many things. a new tool that um does so many things. It decreases the cost of creating It decreases the cost of creating It decreases the cost of creating certain kinds of value. It increases the certain kinds of value. It increases the certain kinds of value. It increases the speed of creating value. um it increases speed of creating value. um it increases speed of creating value. um it increases the possibilities of what can be created the possibilities of what can be created the possibilities of what can be created in so many different ways. It's like you in so many different ways. It's like you in so many different ways. It's like you take this end goal that you're working take this end goal that you're working take this end goal that you're working towards which is create this value and towards which is create this value and towards which is create this value and then you introduce this into it and it then you introduce this into it and it then you introduce this into it and it just multiplies everything just multiplies everything just multiplies everything » and so it is it is properly applied. It » and so it is it is properly applied. It » and so it is it is properly applied. It is a force multiplier on you know the is a force multiplier on you know the is a force multiplier on you know the equation of creating value and all of equation of creating value and all of equation of creating value and all of that doesn't just replace because the that doesn't just replace because the that doesn't just replace because the game is not static. It only replaces and game is not static. It only replaces and game is not static. It only replaces and permanently displaces permanently displaces permanently displaces if you believe and I think it's the if you believe and I think it's the if you believe and I think it's the wrong belief that value to be created is wrong belief that value to be created is wrong belief that value to be created is static or is fixed at some point. And in static or is fixed at some point. And in static or is fixed at some point. And in theory there's a limit out there because theory there's a limit out there because theory there's a limit out there because there's a limit on energy, there's a there's a limit on energy, there's a there's a limit on energy, there's a limit on resources, but I think we're so limit on resources, but I think we're so limit on resources, but I think we're so far away from those that it's that it's far away from those that it's that it's far away from those that it's that it's almost irrelevant. Um, but there's so almost irrelevant. Um, but there's so almost irrelevant. Um, but there's so much to be created that it's that the much to be created that it's that the much to be created that it's that the process of creating creates demand for process of creating creates demand for process of creating creates demand for other things and it creates other things and it creates other things and it creates opportunities for other things. And so opportunities for other things. And so opportunities for other things. And so that's going to constantly do what I that's going to constantly do what I that's going to constantly do what I feel like we're seeing now. And I I read feel like we're seeing now. And I I read feel like we're seeing now. And I I read an article on this yesterday or not read an article on this yesterday or not read an article on this yesterday or not read an article, I skimmed an article that an article, I skimmed an article that an article, I skimmed an article that had a term for it had a term for it had a term for it » that there's a there's a dynamic that » that there's a there's a dynamic that » that there's a there's a dynamic that you know I think economists or you know I think economists or you know I think economists or statistitians talk about and I for the statistitians talk about and I for the statistitians talk about and I for the life of me I can't remember what it's life of me I can't remember what it's life of me I can't remember what it's called but it it it called but it it it called but it it it specifically describes that this is what specifically describes that this is what specifically describes that this is what is and or what is likely or what might is and or what is likely or what might is and or what is likely or what might be occurring for at least from some be occurring for at least from some be occurring for at least from some folks perspective. I mean this is kind folks perspective. I mean this is kind folks perspective. I mean this is kind of how I viewed it all along is that if of how I viewed it all along is that if of how I viewed it all along is that if you believe these things about value you believe these things about value you believe these things about value creation then it is not just you know a creation then it is not just you know a creation then it is not just you know a possibility I think it is inevitable possibility I think it is inevitable possibility I think it is inevitable that AI injected into this whether it's that AI injected into this whether it's that AI injected into this whether it's in law or in anything else is going to in law or in anything else is going to in law or in anything else is going to create more need and more opportunities. create more need and more opportunities. create more need and more opportunities. it's just going to look different, it's just going to look different, it's just going to look different, right? right? right? » But it's like um using our industry, you » But it's like um using our industry, you » But it's like um using our industry, you know, uh 60 years ago, attorneys weren't know, uh 60 years ago, attorneys weren't know, uh 60 years ago, attorneys weren't even, you know, writing the documents even, you know, writing the documents even, you know, writing the documents themselves. They would write notes and themselves. They would write notes and themselves. They would write notes and whatever else or, you know, some of them whatever else or, you know, some of them whatever else or, you know, some of them would, but then they'd hand it to would, but then they'd hand it to would, but then they'd hand it to somebody who' type it up on a somebody who' type it up on a somebody who' type it up on a typewriter. They'd have a form that typewriter. They'd have a form that typewriter. They'd have a form that would get, you know, filled in or would get, you know, filled in or would get, you know, filled in or whatever. And then there was word whatever. And then there was word whatever. And then there was word processing. And then, you know, then processing. And then, you know, then processing. And then, you know, then there was research facilities and things there was research facilities and things there was research facilities and things like that. And there's, you know, uh, like that. And there's, you know, uh, like that. And there's, you know, uh, you know, large research databases you know, large research databases you know, large research databases that displace the need to have a law that displace the need to have a law that displace the need to have a law library, right? Which opens up the library, right? Which opens up the library, right? Which opens up the possibility for firms like mine to even possibility for firms like mine to even possibility for firms like mine to even exist. I don't know if I could have exist. I don't know if I could have exist. I don't know if I could have started a firm if I had to go buy a law started a firm if I had to go buy a law started a firm if I had to go buy a law library or if I had to, library or if I had to, library or if I had to, » you know, constantly be running over the » you know, constantly be running over the » you know, constantly be running over the law library or whatever. Um, and so all law library or whatever. Um, and so all law library or whatever. Um, and so all of these different things, they just of these different things, they just of these different things, they just create so many more possibilities and so create so many more possibilities and so create so many more possibilities and so many more opportunities, but people have many more opportunities, but people have many more opportunities, but people have to be thinking about it. I think to be thinking about it. I think to be thinking about it. I think primarily start with a lens of value primarily start with a lens of value primarily start with a lens of value creation and you focus on understanding creation and you focus on understanding creation and you focus on understanding and creating value and then you just you and creating value and then you just you and creating value and then you just you add the tool into the mix and you learn add the tool into the mix and you learn add the tool into the mix and you learn quickly and it is very quickly. quickly and it is very quickly. quickly and it is very quickly. » Um but I I'm very hopeful about it and » Um but I I'm very hopeful about it and » Um but I I'm very hopeful about it and we've seen really good we've seen really good we've seen really good » um results of it from the use that we » um results of it from the use that we » um results of it from the use that we have. We're trying to be very diligent have. We're trying to be very diligent have. We're trying to be very diligent about using it well. Um we see a lot of about using it well. Um we see a lot of about using it well. Um we see a lot of people using it well. We see a lot of people using it well. We see a lot of people using it well. We see a lot of people using it poorly. Um, and so it's people using it poorly. Um, and so it's people using it poorly. Um, and so it's it's just when you say seeing a lot of it's just when you say seeing a lot of it's just when you say seeing a lot of people use it well or poorly, you're people use it well or poorly, you're people use it well or poorly, you're talking in your space. talking in your space. talking in your space. » Yeah. In our space, either as providers » Yeah. In our space, either as providers » Yeah. In our space, either as providers or as or as users. Yeah. or as or as users. Yeah. or as or as users. Yeah. » Yeah. Or as clients. Yeah. » Yeah. Or as clients. Yeah. » Yeah. Or as clients. Yeah. » Yeah. Oh, I'm sure you see that a lot. » Yeah. Oh, I'm sure you see that a lot. » Yeah. Oh, I'm sure you see that a lot. » Yeah. Yeah. I one of my favorite things » Yeah. Yeah. I one of my favorite things » Yeah. Yeah. I one of my favorite things in terms of use of AI is when a client in terms of use of AI is when a client in terms of use of AI is when a client sends me something where they've been sends me something where they've been sends me something where they've been thoughtful in trying to understand thoughtful in trying to understand thoughtful in trying to understand first. Um, because we work with a lot of first. Um, because we work with a lot of first. Um, because we work with a lot of firsttime, you know, legal users in in firsttime, you know, legal users in in firsttime, you know, legal users in in that particular context. And so they that particular context. And so they that particular context. And so they will have used AI to help them come up will have used AI to help them come up will have used AI to help them come up with, hey, help me understand this. Help with, hey, help me understand this. Help with, hey, help me understand this. Help me ask good questions to then get much me ask good questions to then get much me ask good questions to then get much more value out of the interaction with more value out of the interaction with more value out of the interaction with us. us. us. » Um because then the starting place » Um because then the starting place » Um because then the starting place is a little better. Yeah. is a little better. Yeah. is a little better. Yeah. » You know, and sometimes I kind of » You know, and sometimes I kind of » You know, and sometimes I kind of finished it. Can you clean it up? finished it. Can you clean it up? finished it. Can you clean it up? » Right. Right. Right. I'm like, this is » Right. Right. Right. I'm like, this is » Right. Right. Right. I'm like, this is actually going to cost you more. And I actually going to cost you more. And I actually going to cost you more. And I um but I mean that's a great example of um but I mean that's a great example of um but I mean that's a great example of you know when they come better prepared, you know when they come better prepared, you know when they come better prepared, better educated, better educated, better educated, » um I can help them create more value um » um I can help them create more value um » um I can help them create more value um not just in terms of their bill might go not just in terms of their bill might go not just in terms of their bill might go down. It may go down, it may not, but it down. It may go down, it may not, but it down. It may go down, it may not, but it also just may more realistically allow also just may more realistically allow also just may more realistically allow them to take the resources that are them to take the resources that are them to take the resources that are available and use them to be much more available and use them to be much more available and use them to be much more productive in that interaction rather productive in that interaction rather productive in that interaction rather than like, hey, we've kind of reached than like, hey, we've kind of reached than like, hey, we've kind of reached the limit of what the budget will allow the limit of what the budget will allow the limit of what the budget will allow here and we didn't you we only got to here and we didn't you we only got to here and we didn't you we only got to this place and we would really like to this place and we would really like to this place and we would really like to have gotten a little bit farther along. have gotten a little bit farther along. have gotten a little bit farther along. Um Um Um » so and then there's sometimes where » so and then there's sometimes where » so and then there's sometimes where people are um uh to me the efficacy people are um uh to me the efficacy people are um uh to me the efficacy of it is all about the quality of the of it is all about the quality of the of it is all about the quality of the user at this point in AI's development user at this point in AI's development user at this point in AI's development and people who don't have enough and people who don't have enough and people who don't have enough experience and expertise will think that experience and expertise will think that experience and expertise will think that it is a substitute for experience and it is a substitute for experience and it is a substitute for experience and expertise. Um and so then they will you expertise. Um and so then they will you expertise. Um and so then they will you know try to write entire legal documents know try to write entire legal documents know try to write entire legal documents and replace something um without and replace something um without and replace something um without having a proper understanding of its having a proper understanding of its having a proper understanding of its limitations um and then that can limitations um and then that can limitations um and then that can create other kinds of need for lawyers. create other kinds of need for lawyers. create other kinds of need for lawyers. » Yeah. Right. » Yeah. Right. » Yeah. Right. » So often different kinds of lawyers who » So often different kinds of lawyers who » So often different kinds of lawyers who fix things in a courtroom. I don't do fix things in a courtroom. I don't do fix things in a courtroom. I don't do that. But um yeah, that. But um yeah, that. But um yeah, » and didn't think about AI creating a uh » and didn't think about AI creating a uh » and didn't think about AI creating a uh supply or a demand signal via supply or a demand signal via supply or a demand signal via » Yeah, it absolutely does. Like I have I » Yeah, it absolutely does. Like I have I » Yeah, it absolutely does. Like I have I have a uh a client or I have a colleague have a uh a client or I have a colleague have a uh a client or I have a colleague at another firm who has gotten to a at another firm who has gotten to a at another firm who has gotten to a place where he will probably start to um place where he will probably start to um place where he will probably start to um decline engagements with people um or decline engagements with people um or decline engagements with people um or limit them based on how much they use AI limit them based on how much they use AI limit them based on how much they use AI on the client side on the client side on the client side » because he's had enough experiences » because he's had enough experiences » because he's had enough experiences where somebody's just like they're where somebody's just like they're where somebody's just like they're taking a complex document and they're taking a complex document and they're taking a complex document and they're running it through not a specialized running it through not a specialized running it through not a specialized legal AI, they're running it through legal AI, they're running it through legal AI, they're running it through like a chat GPT or something like that like a chat GPT or something like that like a chat GPT or something like that and sending all of these things. And so and sending all of these things. And so and sending all of these things. And so because the cost of the utilization on because the cost of the utilization on because the cost of the utilization on their end on the client end is so low, their end on the client end is so low, their end on the client end is so low, they're coming back with, you know, they're coming back with, you know, they're coming back with, you know, hundreds of edits, right? And many of hundreds of edits, right? And many of hundreds of edits, right? And many of them are not at all contextually them are not at all contextually them are not at all contextually appropriate, you know, based on either appropriate, you know, based on either appropriate, you know, based on either the business case or whatever. So they the business case or whatever. So they the business case or whatever. So they haven't provided it with enough haven't provided it with enough haven't provided it with enough information or they haven't read the information or they haven't read the information or they haven't read the signals correctly or they don't know the signals correctly or they don't know the signals correctly or they don't know the market, right? Or it's thinking market, right? Or it's thinking market, right? Or it's thinking aggregate market. It's not thinking, aggregate market. It's not thinking, aggregate market. It's not thinking, well, that's that might be true on a well, that's that might be true on a well, that's that might be true on a national average, but that's not true national average, but that's not true national average, but that's not true here in Witchah, and that's going to get here in Witchah, and that's going to get here in Witchah, and that's going to get you burnt, right? you burnt, right? you burnt, right? » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Um, and so, and so it's creating lots of » Um, and so, and so it's creating lots of » Um, and so, and so it's creating lots of added costs for, you know, clients that added costs for, you know, clients that added costs for, you know, clients that do that kind of thing. Um, but it's also do that kind of thing. Um, but it's also do that kind of thing. Um, but it's also going to decrease their availability of, going to decrease their availability of, going to decrease their availability of, you know, providers because there are you know, providers because there are you know, providers because there are providers who are just going to be like, providers who are just going to be like, providers who are just going to be like, I'm not dealing with that anymore. I'm not dealing with that anymore. I'm not dealing with that anymore. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Right. It's just not worth it because » Right. It's just not worth it because » Right. It's just not worth it because it's going to create this constant it's going to create this constant it's going to create this constant strain in the relationship of why is strain in the relationship of why is strain in the relationship of why is this way more expensive? Well, it's this way more expensive? Well, it's this way more expensive? Well, it's because I sell my time and my talent and because I sell my time and my talent and because I sell my time and my talent and you are using dramatically more and not you are using dramatically more and not you are using dramatically more and not using it wisely. And so, using it wisely. And so, using it wisely. And so, » so there are already some uh LLMs that » so there are already some uh LLMs that » so there are already some uh LLMs that are legal focused out there that like are legal focused out there that like are legal focused out there that like lawyers subscribe to assuming. lawyers subscribe to assuming. lawyers subscribe to assuming. » Yeah. Yeah. And and PSA for folks um » Yeah. Yeah. And and PSA for folks um » Yeah. Yeah. And and PSA for folks um many uh many uh many uh uh AI models are not um uh legally uh AI models are not um uh legally uh AI models are not um uh legally protected for you. So if you share protected for you. So if you share protected for you. So if you share » legal information that can be » legal information that can be » legal information that can be discoverable um and so like there's there's you know um and so like there's there's you know um and so like there's there's you know instances I've read of where people's instances I've read of where people's instances I've read of where people's like um chat history and their AI usage like um chat history and their AI usage like um chat history and their AI usage is then paraded around in court. Right. is then paraded around in court. Right. is then paraded around in court. Right. Right. Um but also those tools aren't Right. Um but also those tools aren't Right. Um but also those tools aren't very focused. They're not very focused. They're not very focused. They're not » designed for and some of them do a great » designed for and some of them do a great » designed for and some of them do a great job. Some of them are very useful. job. Some of them are very useful. job. Some of them are very useful. » Um but there are ones that are that are » Um but there are ones that are that are » Um but there are ones that are that are um legal industry specific. There's a um legal industry specific. There's a um legal industry specific. There's a ton of money being spent on that right ton of money being spent on that right ton of money being spent on that right now. now. now. » Y » Y » Y » um uh which is very interesting, very » um uh which is very interesting, very » um uh which is very interesting, very exciting and also I mean there's exciting and also I mean there's exciting and also I mean there's definitely some anxiety in there of what definitely some anxiety in there of what definitely some anxiety in there of what » your whole I love your value point. » your whole I love your value point. » your whole I love your value point. That's how we're doing it in our agency That's how we're doing it in our agency That's how we're doing it in our agency right now and we've harnessed and right now and we've harnessed and right now and we've harnessed and deployed things that deployed things that deployed things that » I lost sleep over the first week that we » I lost sleep over the first week that we » I lost sleep over the first week that we deployed them just cuz I'm like it's deployed them just cuz I'm like it's deployed them just cuz I'm like it's crazy. I mean what it crazy. I mean what it crazy. I mean what it » and specifically when you find that use » and specifically when you find that use » and specifically when you find that use case where you can do way more than you case where you can do way more than you case where you can do way more than you could and And I love your static point could and And I love your static point could and And I love your static point like it's not like it's not like it's not » that's not it. It actually has created » that's not it. It actually has created » that's not it. It actually has created more work, more demand, uh implemented a more work, more demand, uh implemented a more work, more demand, uh implemented a new system and a sta a leader guy on our new system and a sta a leader guy on our new system and a sta a leader guy on our leadership team was like, "Hey, so leadership team was like, "Hey, so leadership team was like, "Hey, so » this is kind of like these people's » this is kind of like these people's » this is kind of like these people's jobs. Are we like what are we going to jobs. Are we like what are we going to jobs. Are we like what are we going to do now?" do now?" do now?" » Right? » Right? » Right? » And it's like they stay like let's » And it's like they stay like let's » And it's like they stay like let's there's going to be and sure enough there's going to be and sure enough there's going to be and sure enough because we unlocked this new capability, because we unlocked this new capability, because we unlocked this new capability, right? right? right? » We had way more stuff to do and we're » We had way more stuff to do and we're » We had way more stuff to do and we're doing way more for our clients out of doing way more for our clients out of doing way more for our clients out of nowhere, right? We literally multiplied nowhere, right? We literally multiplied nowhere, right? We literally multiplied our output um in a valuebased way, our output um in a valuebased way, our output um in a valuebased way, right? Not just cuz we could, right? Not just cuz we could, right? Not just cuz we could, right? right? right? » Um but if the outcome, we're not » Um but if the outcome, we're not » Um but if the outcome, we're not deploying AI in any instance if the deploying AI in any instance if the deploying AI in any instance if the outcome isn't better for our clients. outcome isn't better for our clients. outcome isn't better for our clients. We're only deploying it if the outcome We're only deploying it if the outcome We're only deploying it if the outcome is better. is better. is better. » And when we identify those moments and » And when we identify those moments and » And when we identify those moments and there's lots of things we wish we could there's lots of things we wish we could there's lots of things we wish we could deploy it on that it just can't do. deploy it on that it just can't do. deploy it on that it just can't do. » Right. » Right. » Right. » Right. Because then it'd be an added » Right. Because then it'd be an added » Right. Because then it'd be an added value, but obviously it needs our value, but obviously it needs our value, but obviously it needs our understanding. We we have to harness understanding. We we have to harness understanding. We we have to harness these agents to be able to do harness these agents to be able to do harness these agents to be able to do things and build our own SOPs because things and build our own SOPs because things and build our own SOPs because they won't go off on their own. But they won't go off on their own. But they won't go off on their own. But the value thing, the more work that is being value thing, the more work that is being value thing, the more work that is being created » and the barrier to entry, I I'm seeing » and the barrier to entry, I I'm seeing » and the barrier to entry, I I'm seeing an opportunity where someone can come in an opportunity where someone can come in an opportunity where someone can come in and feel less scared to meet with you, and feel less scared to meet with you, and feel less scared to meet with you, » not less afraid of what you're going to » not less afraid of what you're going to » not less afraid of what you're going to charge them because they have a deep charge them because they have a deep charge them because they have a deep understanding of their situation. understanding of their situation. understanding of their situation. Exactly what you just said. They do all Exactly what you just said. They do all Exactly what you just said. They do all this research. They come in, okay, this research. They come in, okay, this research. They come in, okay, this is kind of what I understand, what I is kind of what I understand, what I is kind of what I understand, what I need. I'd love to walk it through. need. I'd love to walk it through. need. I'd love to walk it through. That's way more efficient. You can get That's way more efficient. You can get That's way more efficient. You can get them out the door in a very peaceful, them out the door in a very peaceful, them out the door in a very peaceful, efficient way, efficient way, efficient way, » right? » right? » right? » And help the next person. So, in my » And help the next person. So, in my » And help the next person. So, in my mind, I could just see more people mind, I could just see more people mind, I could just see more people potentially going to attorneys because potentially going to attorneys because potentially going to attorneys because they get if they if they do their they get if they if they do their they get if they if they do their research and they talk to GPT or Claude research and they talk to GPT or Claude research and they talk to GPT or Claude and they're like, "Yeah, this is what and they're like, "Yeah, this is what and they're like, "Yeah, this is what you should do and this is how I should you should do and this is how I should you should do and this is how I should button it up and don't do it, but then button it up and don't do it, but then button it up and don't do it, but then [clears throat] go in and do that [clears throat] go in and do that [clears throat] go in and do that consultation." because that's what I'm consultation." because that's what I'm consultation." because that's what I'm seeing on my side is they will come seeing on my side is they will come seeing on my side is they will come in with some research, right? And in with some research, right? And in with some research, right? And they'll break down these different best they'll break down these different best they'll break down these different best practices and it's like great. Yeah, practices and it's like great. Yeah, practices and it's like great. Yeah, these are good ideas. Um this is what these are good ideas. Um this is what these are good ideas. Um this is what we've seen with that. This is what we've we've seen with that. This is what we've we've seen with that. This is what we've actually in real market tested, right? actually in real market tested, right? actually in real market tested, right? And seen really good or really bad And seen really good or really bad And seen really good or really bad results. Um and their [clears throat] results. Um and their [clears throat] results. Um and their [clears throat] situation AI cannot predict what the situation AI cannot predict what the situation AI cannot predict what the best overall digital marketing growth best overall digital marketing growth best overall digital marketing growth strategy is for [clears throat] every strategy is for [clears throat] every strategy is for [clears throat] every client because it it does change per client because it it does change per client because it it does change per client, right? like depending on their client, right? like depending on their client, right? like depending on their situation, their competitors market size situation, their competitors market size situation, their competitors market size like » and how much they can capital they can » and how much they can capital they can » and how much they can capital they can deploy uh for growth deploy uh for growth deploy uh for growth » really influences it a lot and so yeah » really influences it a lot and so yeah » really influences it a lot and so yeah anyway I [clears throat] I do see way anyway I [clears throat] I do see way anyway I [clears throat] I do see way more work coming more work coming more work coming » for any professional service and a » for any professional service and a » for any professional service and a lot of people are concerned that my lot of people are concerned that my lot of people are concerned that my industry is about to go away. I've had industry is about to go away. I've had industry is about to go away. I've had even in our site a lot of people have even in our site a lot of people have even in our site a lot of people have brought that up to me and I'm like no brought that up to me and I'm like no brought that up to me and I'm like no it's been great like we we we have more it's been great like we we we have more it's been great like we we we have more to do than we've ever had. to do than we've ever had. to do than we've ever had. » Yeah. And part of it is is I think » Yeah. And part of it is is I think » Yeah. And part of it is is I think and I would imagine this is true for and I would imagine this is true for and I would imagine this is true for yours industry. I think it's true for yours industry. I think it's true for yours industry. I think it's true for ours as well is is some instances it ours as well is is some instances it ours as well is is some instances it lowers a cost. lowers a cost. lowers a cost. » Mhm. » Mhm. » Mhm. » And and it lowers a cost which makes it » And and it lowers a cost which makes it » And and it lowers a cost which makes it more accessible. more accessible. more accessible. » And so it multiplies the accessibility » And so it multiplies the accessibility » And so it multiplies the accessibility of value creating opportunities for of value creating opportunities for of value creating opportunities for people which you know then they create people which you know then they create people which you know then they create more value as a result and they need more value as a result and they need more value as a result and they need more right and they create more and they more right and they create more and they more right and they create more and they need more. It creates this virtuous need more. It creates this virtuous need more. It creates this virtuous cycle. cycle. cycle. » Um but I mean in some instances it just » Um but I mean in some instances it just » Um but I mean in some instances it just makes the outcome better. makes the outcome better. makes the outcome better. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Right. which also creates more which » Right. which also creates more which » Right. which also creates more which creates more need which creates more creates more need which creates more creates more need which creates more opportunity and it just it repeats opportunity and it just it repeats opportunity and it just it repeats itself and so I think it's something to itself and so I think it's something to itself and so I think it's something to be very hopeful about. It's obviously be very hopeful about. It's obviously be very hopeful about. It's obviously something to be exceptionally cautious something to be exceptionally cautious something to be exceptionally cautious about. I mean there's obviously it's a about. I mean there's obviously it's a about. I mean there's obviously it's a very complicated thing. Hi, I'm Captain very complicated thing. Hi, I'm Captain very complicated thing. Hi, I'm Captain Obvious. Um should just wear start Obvious. Um should just wear start Obvious. Um should just wear start wearing that around as a name tag. wearing that around as a name tag. wearing that around as a name tag. » Yeah, » Yeah, » Yeah, » but um and I I feel like I've you know » but um and I I feel like I've you know » but um and I I feel like I've you know caveat everything. Good lord. I'll even caveat everything. Good lord. I'll even caveat everything. Good lord. I'll even caveat this. Yeah. caveat this. Yeah. caveat this. Yeah. » Yeah, that's good. Um, no, thanks for » Yeah, that's good. Um, no, thanks for » Yeah, that's good. Um, no, thanks for sharing that. I'm genuinely curious how sharing that. I'm genuinely curious how sharing that. I'm genuinely curious how other industries are deploying it and other industries are deploying it and other industries are deploying it and using it and they're understanding what using it and they're understanding what using it and they're understanding what it's going to look like in it's going to look like in it's going to look like in » 10 years and kind of more in the » 10 years and kind of more in the » 10 years and kind of more in the now, like what has it unlocked? now, like what has it unlocked? now, like what has it unlocked? What what have been the value ads that What what have been the value ads that What what have been the value ads that you've already seen that you're like, you've already seen that you're like, you've already seen that you're like, "Oh, this is this is good." I I think "Oh, this is this is good." I I think "Oh, this is this is good." I I think like one of the things that I hold on to like one of the things that I hold on to like one of the things that I hold on to and I think this is the right view for and I think this is the right view for and I think this is the right view for us anyway in our industry and I for us anyway in our industry and I for us anyway in our industry and I we'll know whether or not we're right in we'll know whether or not we're right in we'll know whether or not we're right in a couple of years probably. Um people a couple of years probably. Um people a couple of years probably. Um people saying it's going to be 12 months. I saying it's going to be 12 months. I saying it's going to be 12 months. I don't think that's right. It could be, don't think that's right. It could be, don't think that's right. It could be, but » what in 12 months » what in 12 months » what in 12 months » that we'll see substantial changes, » that we'll see substantial changes, » that we'll see substantial changes, but um is but um is but um is [clears throat] that the people that are [clears throat] that the people that are [clears throat] that the people that are going to win with AI going to win with AI going to win with AI won't view it as like, hey, this won't view it as like, hey, this won't view it as like, hey, this completely changes everything. They'll completely changes everything. They'll completely changes everything. They'll view it as a useful tool, really useful view it as a useful tool, really useful view it as a useful tool, really useful tool, definitely a transformative tool, tool, definitely a transformative tool, tool, definitely a transformative tool, » and they'll understand how to use it, » and they'll understand how to use it, » and they'll understand how to use it, use it properly, but they're not going use it properly, but they're not going use it properly, but they're not going to be in a rush. They're not going to to be in a rush. They're not going to to be in a rush. They're not going to completely redesign everything around completely redesign everything around completely redesign everything around it. That'll come a time. They stay it. That'll come a time. They stay it. That'll come a time. They stay focused on like what people are coming focused on like what people are coming focused on like what people are coming to me for in my industry, you know, for to me for in my industry, you know, for to me for in my industry, you know, for what I'm focused on is they want to have what I'm focused on is they want to have what I'm focused on is they want to have great business transitions. Whether great business transitions. Whether great business transitions. Whether that's, you know, to their kids, to that's, you know, to their kids, to that's, you know, to their kids, to their employees, selling to a buyer, their employees, selling to a buyer, their employees, selling to a buyer, buying a business, whatever that looks buying a business, whatever that looks buying a business, whatever that looks like, they want to have those great like, they want to have those great like, they want to have those great transitions. They don't care about AI in transitions. They don't care about AI in transitions. They don't care about AI in that sense. They're not being like, that sense. They're not being like, that sense. They're not being like, "Hey, I want to buy AI delivered legal "Hey, I want to buy AI delivered legal "Hey, I want to buy AI delivered legal services from you." services from you." services from you." » They want an end result, right? And » They want an end result, right? And » They want an end result, right? And » so it's my job to create that value » so it's my job to create that value » so it's my job to create that value » exchange whatever tools you need to » exchange whatever tools you need to » exchange whatever tools you need to » right and so I think when people lose » right and so I think when people lose » right and so I think when people lose sight of the value sight of the value sight of the value » that's where they get into trouble and » that's where they get into trouble and » that's where they get into trouble and so you have all of these people I think so you have all of these people I think so you have all of these people I think are rushing towards like I am going to are rushing towards like I am going to are rushing towards like I am going to be the king or queen of AI mountain like be the king or queen of AI mountain like be the king or queen of AI mountain like » great let me know how that turns out for » great let me know how that turns out for » great let me know how that turns out for you I'm going to be busy understanding you I'm going to be busy understanding you I'm going to be busy understanding and selling people what they want and selling people what they want and selling people what they want » and AI is a part of that right and » and AI is a part of that right and » and AI is a part of that right and obviously that's Yeah. obviously that's Yeah. obviously that's Yeah. » Gosh, there's another caveat. Can we » Gosh, there's another caveat. Can we » Gosh, there's another caveat. Can we have a caveat counter on this video? Use have a caveat counter on this video? Use have a caveat counter on this video? Use AI for that. But um but I mean ser AI for that. But um but I mean ser AI for that. But um but I mean seriously I think you know I see all seriously I think you know I see all seriously I think you know I see all these companies like I just read about a these companies like I just read about a these companies like I just read about a firm that's spending it's a big firm that's spending it's a big firm that's spending it's a big firm one of the biggest in the world that's one of the biggest in the world that's one of the biggest in the world that's spending $500 million on developing spending $500 million on developing spending $500 million on developing their own proprietary AI their own proprietary AI their own proprietary AI » of course » of course » of course » and there's a part of me that's like you » and there's a part of me that's like you » and there's a part of me that's like you know it at my size that's not even like know it at my size that's not even like know it at my size that's not even like a like what would I even you know okay a like what would I even you know okay a like what would I even you know okay cool um they're not really my competitor cool um they're not really my competitor cool um they're not really my competitor anyway. They wish they wish they were my anyway. They wish they wish they were my anyway. They wish they wish they were my competitor. Um but um competitor. Um but um competitor. Um but um » uh » uh » uh get but um that train of thought has get but um that train of thought has get but um that train of thought has gone off of inv. gone off of inv. gone off of inv. » Yeah, the 500 investment in » Yeah, the 500 investment in » Yeah, the 500 investment in » but it's like okay I'm really » but it's like okay I'm really » but it's like okay I'm really curious to see how that's going to turn curious to see how that's going to turn curious to see how that's going to turn out for them. out for them. out for them. » But um I mean I'm more interested in » But um I mean I'm more interested in » But um I mean I'm more interested in like you know broadscale impact of this. like you know broadscale impact of this. like you know broadscale impact of this. How does this help us as attorneys do How does this help us as attorneys do How does this help us as attorneys do better jobs and more effectively focus better jobs and more effectively focus better jobs and more effectively focus like our most scarce resource which is like our most scarce resource which is like our most scarce resource which is our time, our talent our time, our talent our time, our talent » and I think increasingly our relational » and I think increasingly our relational » and I think increasingly our relational connectivity to people connectivity to people connectivity to people » to enhance the human experience and » to enhance the human experience and » to enhance the human experience and drive » you know really exciting value producing » you know really exciting value producing » you know really exciting value producing you know results for folks. you know results for folks. you know results for folks. » I want to spend more face to face time » I want to spend more face to face time » I want to spend more face to face time with a client because then we do better with a client because then we do better with a client because then we do better work right. work right. work right. » Yeah. Like the more time you spend with » Yeah. Like the more time you spend with » Yeah. Like the more time you spend with your clients, I'm sure you pull out your clients, I'm sure you pull out your clients, I'm sure you pull out things » because the more you do that, the more » because the more you do that, the more » because the more you do that, the more you understand what value is to them. you understand what value is to them. you understand what value is to them. » Exactly. » Exactly. » Exactly. » And then you can go use your skills and » And then you can go use your skills and » And then you can go use your skills and your abilities to deliver as much of your abilities to deliver as much of your abilities to deliver as much of that as possible to them. that as possible to them. that as possible to them. » Having AI read my emails and then » Having AI read my emails and then » Having AI read my emails and then debrief me every day at 4 p.m. and then debrief me every day at 4 p.m. and then debrief me every day at 4 p.m. and then maybe have some drafts ready, right, maybe have some drafts ready, right, maybe have some drafts ready, right, » based on if they're a client or not, » based on if they're a client or not, » based on if they're a client or not, right? That's huge. That's a huge tool right? That's huge. That's a huge tool right? That's huge. That's a huge tool for me because I'm not for me because I'm not for me because I'm not » I'm not getting consumed or distracted » I'm not getting consumed or distracted » I'm not getting consumed or distracted while I'm with a client and worried while I'm with a client and worried while I'm with a client and worried about this one thing I got to do. Like about this one thing I got to do. Like about this one thing I got to do. Like if you can build systems with that tool if you can build systems with that tool if you can build systems with that tool that give me more focus with Sam that give me more focus with Sam that give me more focus with Sam » like I everyone wins. both sides » like I everyone wins. both sides » like I everyone wins. both sides win because you can't replace you like win because you can't replace you like win because you can't replace you like at the end of the day your ability to at the end of the day your ability to at the end of the day your ability to understand what their value is right understand what their value is right understand what their value is right » is your greatest asset right » is your greatest asset right » is your greatest asset right » and then you have all these tools and » and then you have all these tools and » and then you have all these tools and education to then deliver it education to then deliver it education to then deliver it » but understanding it's the » but understanding it's the » but understanding it's the [clears throat] key like every [clears throat] key like every [clears throat] key like every professional service I think it's professional service I think it's professional service I think it's understanding what they really want understanding what they really want understanding what they really want » uh and what resources they have to get » uh and what resources they have to get » uh and what resources they have to get there » yeah and at the end of the day it's » yeah and at the end of the day it's » yeah and at the end of the day it's humans that are at the top right here humans that are at the top right here humans that are at the top right here for now It's coming. It's coming. But » um and I mean the human experience, I » um and I mean the human experience, I » um and I mean the human experience, I mean know so much of it has to do with mean know so much of it has to do with mean know so much of it has to do with relationships. Yeah. Right. relationships. Yeah. Right. relationships. Yeah. Right. » And you know there's just elements of » And you know there's just elements of » And you know there's just elements of that are never going to be that are never going to be that are never going to be replaceable and augmented probably replaceable and augmented probably replaceable and augmented probably » but not um you know not » but not um you know not » but not um you know not replaced. Yeah. And uh when it all replaced. Yeah. And uh when it all replaced. Yeah. And uh when it all becomes for some folks about like becomes for some folks about like becomes for some folks about like how do I understand and implement as how do I understand and implement as how do I understand and implement as much AI as possible instead of like much AI as possible instead of like much AI as possible instead of like don't lose sight of the bigger picture. don't lose sight of the bigger picture. don't lose sight of the bigger picture. Yeah. Right. People aren't buying AI. Yeah. Right. People aren't buying AI. Yeah. Right. People aren't buying AI. » I mean from you. That's not what they » I mean from you. That's not what they » I mean from you. That's not what they want. Right. want. Right. want. Right. » They're like I want to go sell stuff » They're like I want to go sell stuff » They're like I want to go sell stuff like please help my business grow. like please help my business grow. like please help my business grow. » Exactly. » Exactly. » Exactly. » In a killer way. Killer way. » In a killer way. Killer way. » In a killer way. Killer way. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » And and you know I want to go go sell » And and you know I want to go go sell » And and you know I want to go go sell stuff. stuff. stuff. » And if you were like Yeah. So here's how » And if you were like Yeah. So here's how » And if you were like Yeah. So here's how that works. I've got a bunch of horses that works. I've got a bunch of horses that works. I've got a bunch of horses out back and they just run out back and they just run out back and they just run around in a circle and eventually one of around in a circle and eventually one of around in a circle and eventually one of them lands on a great strategy and it them lands on a great strategy and it them lands on a great strategy and it just it just works like just it just works like just it just works like like if you could produce if you could like if you could produce if you could like if you could produce if you could show results people would be like all show results people would be like all show results people would be like all right that's that is weird but let's try right that's that is weird but let's try right that's that is weird but let's try it. it. it. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Can we take a bet on the which horse » Can we take a bet on the which horse » Can we take a bet on the which horse falls to? falls to? falls to? » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Same as AI. » Same as AI. » Same as AI. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » We are out of time. Uh one thing I did » We are out of time. Uh one thing I did » We are out of time. Uh one thing I did get to talk about and I'm going to do a get to talk about and I'm going to do a get to talk about and I'm going to do a quick plug. how to Buy and Sell a quick plug. how to Buy and Sell a quick plug. how to Buy and Sell a business podcast. Yeah. Sam Foreman, business podcast. Yeah. Sam Foreman, business podcast. Yeah. Sam Foreman, Jacob Weman, Jacob's coming on the Jacob Weman, Jacob's coming on the Jacob Weman, Jacob's coming on the podcast as well a little later on. podcast as well a little later on. podcast as well a little later on. » That's great. » That's great. » That's great. » So maybe I'll get into that with him a » So maybe I'll get into that with him a » So maybe I'll get into that with him a little deeper cuz I I was hoping to get little deeper cuz I I was hoping to get little deeper cuz I I was hoping to get into that with you, but we do have into that with you, but we do have into that with you, but we do have another one starting here in 2 minutes. another one starting here in 2 minutes. another one starting here in 2 minutes. But what I will say is go subscribe. But what I will say is go subscribe. But what I will say is go subscribe. Please check out their podcasts, listen Please check out their podcasts, listen Please check out their podcasts, listen to lots of them. There's so much value to lots of them. There's so much value to lots of them. There's so much value add in that specifically for business add in that specifically for business add in that specifically for business owners uh that are looking to buy or owners uh that are looking to buy or owners uh that are looking to buy or sell a business. It lives up to its name sell a business. It lives up to its name sell a business. It lives up to its name and you have great guests around that. and you have great guests around that. and you have great guests around that. Um, minus me. All of them were great. Um, minus me. All of them were great. Um, minus me. All of them were great. Minus me being on there. Uh, Minus me being on there. Uh, Minus me being on there. Uh, last, I'll end on this, dude. I love last, I'll end on this, dude. I love last, I'll end on this, dude. I love you. Uh, your heart. Um, you're just you. Uh, your heart. Um, you're just you. Uh, your heart. Um, you're just one of those guys that if somebody needs one of those guys that if somebody needs one of those guys that if somebody needs something or needs help, I've used you something or needs help, I've used you something or needs help, I've used you and » will always plan I hope to have to use » will always plan I hope to have to use » will always plan I hope to have to use you a lot in the near future. you a lot in the near future. you a lot in the near future. And that should be the goal. And that should be the goal. And that should be the goal. And anyone listening that needs help with uh anyone listening that needs help with uh anyone listening that needs help with uh yeah, buying and selling a business, yeah, buying and selling a business, yeah, buying and selling a business, like please reach out to Sam, have like please reach out to Sam, have like please reach out to Sam, have coffee. You will not regret it. Even if coffee. You will not regret it. Even if coffee. You will not regret it. Even if you're not at that place yet, meet Sam. you're not at that place yet, meet Sam. you're not at that place yet, meet Sam. So, thanks for coming on. ---