The Franchise Playbook: Leadership, Discipline, and Building for the Long Term with Jeff Baker | Ep8

Thanks for hanging out. Thanks for having me. Yeah. It was a long, long trek from your farm. You know I was going to buy that acreage, right? You know we're the only two bidders. Did we talk about that? I actually wondered if that was going to come up. Yeah. Well, I think that's how we should start. I have a lot of resentment towards you and I just want to clear the air. No, it was great. It turned out really cool though. You've done a good job with that. So no, there's your resentment. I was super happy when it was you. That worked out great. Well, I actually wondered if that conversation was going to come up and I already pre-planned my response. I'm competitive. Let's hear it. Yeah, you're right. I'm competitive. So I was going to let you know that, you know, that's the entrepreneurial spirit. Hey, I've only competed against you once and I lost so I've learned my lesson. Yeah. Fool me once. Yeah. It was you though. In all fairness. Yeah. It was Steven and I. We were doing it together. You guys told me later. Yeah. I think I told you at Jeff and Gina's yard. Yeah. Yeah. All right, guys. Welcome to the Killer Growth Podcast. I'm Sam McVay. Today I got Jeff Baker with the Grounds Guys of Wichita joining me and appreciate you being here. Yeah. I'm glad to be here. Your green goes great actually with the Killer Growth green. It's good. Very similar. It's a good color. Good green. Yeah. Is there gold on the logo or is it yellow? Gold. Okay. Good. Green and gold. Green and gold. Yeah. Grounds Guys. Love it. All right. Well, we'll start with an easy one. Give me Jeff's story leading up to Grounds Guys and then we'll move into kind of why you did it. But what'd you do before Grounds Guys and how did you get into Grounds Guys? So prior to Grounds Guys, I was next door. The police station for those of you that are not from El Dorado, Kansas. Yeah. Next door, city of El Dorado, born and raised here, born in the hospital here, went to school here, graduated, watched some of your prior podcasts. You know, I reached out to you and said, this is super cool. Yeah. That was very kind of you. I've been watching everything. So I think it's awesome. You get to hear all the different stories, but, uh, so I graduated and, uh, actually somebody else said this on one of your previous, uh, shows, but, uh, didn't have a lot of direction, tried Butler, wasn't working for me, joined the military, came out of the military, went to the city, uh, worked at the police department and then, uh, hit, hit the age of 33 and said, I, I didn't want to do it anymore and it was, that's a tough, tough environment to be in. How long were you an officer? Uh, just shy of 13 years, I think about 12 and a half years and I was mowing on all my days off, um, to make ends meet and didn't want to be strapped to an office, but always wanted to run my own business. So started, that was in the early days of Google. Yeah. I think like, remember like Ask Jeeves? Oh yeah. Yeah. Wow. I think I was like, who was that? Was that Jeeves like Microsoft or it wasn't something. Okay. So I was like looking around on the internet, you know, like what's, how do I get into something that didn't have, cause you were mowing on the side just, oh yeah, you knew, wow. Yeah. I would like work midnight shifts from 6P to 6A. I'd wake up at noon. So I'd get home like at like 630, 645, go to bed, get up at like noon, 1215, 1230, go mow five or six yards, rush home at like 5, 530, unhook my little utility trailer for my truck, take a really quick shower, um, get my uniform on, rush to work, be there by 6PM. And then, uh, just wanted to contend. That's what I knew. So I was like, oh, you know, get into some, something like that. But I didn't, I knew nothing about business. So found this franchise online. I was like, oh, I can do that. I know how to mow yards. And people are like, you're crazy. You're nuts. Like, what are you doing? The franchise is gonna. Yeah. You're going to take all your money. It's going to ruin your life. Like don't do it. You're walking away from like retirement and you know, you're a sergeant at the police department. Like you're going to ruin your life. You got kids at home. Like, what are you, what are you doing? And I just had that like burning desire. Like you said, you always wanted to be in business. When, when did that start? Did you see someone? Did you know people do it? Mowing yards. That was it. Since you were cashing those checks and seeing the money come in, I was like, I want to try it. You know? I was like, I wanted to control my own destiny. You know? It was like the more I mowed, I was like, oh, I can, I can figure out how to make my own money, you know? So that was when you're, when you're, when you're living paycheck to paycheck, it's tough. Yeah. So, but then you figure out when you're an entrepreneur, paycheck to paycheck takes on a whole new, yeah. You miss a lot of paychecks, Jeff. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You don't, you don't see that side of it until you get in it. Then you're like, wow. Yeah. This is really tough. Yeah. It's a, but, but then there's that, uh, like you figure out like as a true entrepreneur, it's like, that's, that's the game, right? And then it's like sports. It's like winning a game and then it just becomes like a challenge and then it, I don't know. It just becomes like addicting at some point. So you were Googling opportunities and came across the grounds guys. Found it. Yeah. Reached out to them. Just called them. Yep. Cold called them. I'm sure they're very happy about that. Yeah. Yeah. They called me back. They took credit. They took credit. Yeah. You found them on Google or on a Jeeves. I was a heart. Yeah. Ask Jeeves or whatever it was. And I was a hard sell. Took them almost a year. Okay. I'm sure they're really sick of trying to sell me on it. Um, those are the tough decision cause I'd never done anything other than law enforcement. You know, I was involved in the cadet program all through high school, both at the sheriff's department, uh, here and at the police department. Very involved with them. So I'd never done anything other. I mean, even in the military, I was security forces, which is military police. So it was a big, you know, big change, but, um, did it, um, opened and, uh, rest is history. Right. What in your decision making, you said, you know, a lot of people were worried about you obviously quitting your job. They're worried about you doing the franchise model. Um, but talk about why'd you choose the franchise model? What was attractive about it at that time? Um, I don't know if it was attractive more than I didn't have anybody in my family that had done business before. I knew nothing about business. So I don't know if it was attractive more than it was fear of failure. So there's more like a security blanket. Sure. If that makes sense. Yeah. The support system. Yeah. I didn't grow up in a family that, you know, some people grow up, you know, their families in business, they know other people in business. You know what I'm saying? Like there's familiarity with that and I didn't have any of that. So I was like, I don't know the first step. So the, the franchise model was like, oh, okay, it's kind of a security blanket. Yeah. And looking back, I think it was a good call for me. Yeah. Yeah. So take me through, you've got it now. How did you get customers? Did they provide, what did the franchise provide besides systems, probably processes there? They're obviously coaching you through it. Sure. Um, but how'd you get clients? Hustle. Yeah. Yeah. So like in the, in the early days, like one of the favorite programs I use a lot was they had a program where you, you could, you could provide them a list of people to call on your behalf. And I used that program a lot. And that was- So you would generate a list and then have them cold call, would they physically call them? Oh, wow. And they would follow up with you on like, cause- Residential or business? Both. Okay. You could, you could give them anybody. Um, and I was mostly at that time commercial cause the residential was easy cause I was from here, right? So I knew everybody. And so, um, but like then you get into commercial and there's gatekeepers, right? Like I had one commercial client I worked on for five years and I could not get past that front window at all. And I finally broke through and once I did, that was my first big commercial contract. And then it was kind of, you know, in business you work on stuff for years and then once you kind of get through it, things start to happen. But, um, you know, they work on that stuff for you and that helped quite a bit, especially in the beginning. So. What was the hardest, uh, part about hiring and the growth? You get a big contract, but then you've got more people, more equipment. Yeah, um, I think, I don't know. I guess I kind of have a unique perspective, I guess on business. I don't, a lot of people I talk to other business owners, you know, they look at business and they, they talk about like their industry specific stuff. And I look at business very different. I look at business as the hard stuff isn't actually the industry you're in. It's the stuff behind the scenes that I think is tough because it really doesn't matter what industry you're in. And that's the people that I tend to gravitate towards because it doesn't matter if you're selling appliances, cleaning carpets, you know, tearing up roads and putting down new asphalt. Those things don't really matter. It's the delivery of the service that you're doing. And so if on the back end, if you don't have the right things in order, like I'm in landscaping, that's tough, man. I mean, our guys go out and they dig holes all day and they put pipe underground, they're moving rock and moving dirt. Like that's, there's nothing glorious about that. And so I think like for me, my success, if, if you look at our crews, like we have a lot of year over year employees and have for many years. And how do you do that? Especially in a seasonal business. Correct. How do you do that? I've always wondered, like, especially for a lawnmower, like if you're going to scale lawn mowing, how do you get them to come back after the winter? And you don't know if it's going to snow. Because I talk about that. Yeah. Because I've never laid anybody off. So they're getting paid 40 hours a week all winter. I keep my staff busy all year round. Even then, even when you're first starting? Well, back then I mowed a lot. You did a lot of work. I did. Yeah. I mowed a lot. So I did have some seasonal, you know, like summer help, stuff like that. But after like year three, you know. That's when you went into landscaping. Yeah. I mean, things grew, you know, in that time. I mean, I mowed, I mowed a lot in the, in the beginning years. I mowed a lot. Like we were, we were mowing, but we, you know, we, we never really mowed like residential. We did a few. We were into like big commercial mowing. We'd go park trucks and trailers places and we'd have a crew there like all day long. Yeah. And I think in our peak, we were only mowing like 40 properties. Wow. Cause they were that big. They were huge. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They were huge. And that's the franchise model, like figuring out how to do things smarter, you know, um, 80% of your revenues, 20% of your customers. Yeah. So like, I mean, we're, we're going to 40 properties, you know, but it's the equivalent of mowing like 1800 yards. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. And that's the power. So you drove there once. Correct. Yeah. Correct. That makes sense. Correct. But then we got out of mowing eventually too. And what did that, that, that was kind of crazy to me. I'm sure that was a big transition. Um, what, what did that look like? You started doing like, so that obviously fed the engine, like it, it helps you build the landscaping side and build connections, but the landscaping side is mostly residential. Yeah, yeah. So to just say I'm done with the whole, the core of our business, majority of our revenue, was that just slowly over time you drop off contracts or was it all at once? No. So that was kind of a, so what happened was, is we were growing our landscaping and we were getting in with some home builders and things like that. And just like the business model was changing, like the customer race was changing and there's, there, once you get into having like full-time staff and just like mowing profits are tough, man. There's spindles and mixed oil and commercial mowers are expensive. Yeah. I mean, they're like, you know, the price of a car, you know, and they get tore up, they just get beat. They're running 10 hours a day and I mean there's blades and belts and just, I mean the overhead on them is just crazy expensive and tires and there's all kinds of crazy overhead and the margins are slim. There's always the next guy going into those customers and trying to undercut them, you know. And so I had made an agreement that if we could build up the landscaping side of our business that we would eventually get out of mowing and so eventually we did. We just, we turned it off and that was around the time COVID hit and there was some tough stuff going on with them, you know, for a lot of properties were saying, hey, we don't have the budget to continue to want us to in-house this stuff and that was the time. I mean, you know, they're saying, hey, our maintenance staff is going to handle it or we don't know what's going to happen or, you know, we got to go with the cheapest bidder, period. We love you guys, but we got to take the lowest bid and I get it, you know, that was a tough time for everybody. Nobody knew what was going to happen. Was COVID good for landscaping? Yeah. I assumed. I feel like it was good for a lot of those bigger projects. Initially it was not. Right. It was like a three month window. Everything was bad, I feel like, and then we all feel like benefited. How long did you feel like it was bad? Probably the first six months. Six months. It was brutal. Yeah. It was brutal. And then it was... And then it just went boatless. Everything that would have happened in that six months happened. The next two years was stupid crazy. Yeah. It was... I mean, nobody could have guessed what was going to happen after that. No. No. Yeah. Everything we all know now, everybody could have made a lot of money during COVID and a lot of things. Yeah. Yeah. It was tough though at first. I mean, I can remember the first day they announced the shutdown and my shop at the time was across from the Quick Trip, Haberhausen Central, and I left the shop and went to Quick Trip and I was the only person in there. Are you guys essential? Yeah. Because I need my sweet tea. Yeah. I was like, what's going on in here? You know, I was like, how are we going to drive around and go? Because we're 100% a mobile service. You know, we go to people's houses, but then it was like, well, we work outside, but then what does that mean for us? You know? And it was just like. I mean, the city's going to find them if the grass is too tall. So I'd say you were essential. Yeah. But nobody wanted us in their house. Nobody wanted it. Even though we're outside still. Like, it was weird. It was crazy. Yeah. So any of those contracts that remain, did you just hand them off? Did you sell any contracts? We referred a lot. Referred. Yeah. Yeah. We referred a lot. Some people didn't want referred to anybody. You know, we got to make a move and move on somewhere else. You know, some of them we passed on to other people. Yeah. Do you, do you have, you have a business partner? Did you always have a business partner? In grounds guys? No. Okay. And you have one now? Nope. You don't. Okay. Gotcha. 100%. That's still you. Great. Just me. Yeah. And that was on the other side, I think is what I was thinking, which we can get into. What like now looking back, so it's been, so you were there, how many years now? I'm almost 13. 13 years. In grounds guys. I'm almost 13. Yeah. Cause it was about the same time good to be clean started. Yeah. Cause I think good to be clean is 13 years old. Yeah. It was like around the, yeah. So we both did it the first time at the same time, which is kind of crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Kind of crazy. What, what's looking back over 13 years, what's been the biggest advantage of the franchise model? The ability to hit the fast forward button and like business maturity. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, so many people, I still hear it every day. I mean, I just had a conversation with the guy the other day and he's like, I just don't understand why you franchise still. I don't understand. Like they just take your money. I had a guy who's at my office and I'm like, it's just the security of like, I don't have to figure out there's so many things like there's advantages to not sure. You know? And I think that's the thing in business that so many people get fused on. There's not a right answer for anything. It's just like life. It's almost like people decide like where to go to church, whether to go to church, whether to, you know, live in this town or that town or what kind of car to buy. You know, everybody wants to say like, is Ford, Chevy or Dodge better? Right. There is not a right answer. And everybody's searching for that, right? There's not. It depends. I mean, there is. There's not. No, I'm kidding. It depends on you. There's a right answer for you. I like how that looks. Okay. That one looks better. Body. Yeah. For you, the right answer. If you live on a dirt road, you may want to have a pickup. Yeah. But if you live in a metro area, you would not want a big pickup. You would want a small car. So for two people to have that same conversation, they can't find the right answer for both of them because it's going to be different for the person. And I think that in business, people get caught up in, you know, finding that, that ultimate right answer. Yeah. Yeah. And that's a bad decision. Correct. Right? Correct. Just freeze. So there's, there's so much information out there, especially now. Yeah. You've got to be willing to make a mistake. You've got to be willing to realize you bought the wrong car. You're never going to buy a car. Right. You've got to realize, like, when you buy that GMC, you're going to regret it. Right. You wish you would have bought a Ford. It's just, you know. Right. Right. But I don't have a preference. Right. So in the early days, what, what's the biggest mistake that shaped you? Like what, in the first five, six years, you know, what was something you now look back and you're able to help a lot of people starting out? Is there any, I know there's probably a long list, but yeah, yeah, yeah. But what's, what's a couple of mistakes? Yeah. Yeah. You and me both. Probably the biggest mistake I've made over time is just like not making decisions when you need to make them, you know, I think as an entrepreneur, you don't want to be an ax grinder. You want to wear your heart on your sleeve and be, you want to do right by people. And a lot of times you end up getting burned, you know, and that's the hard part because you don't want, you don't want to be seen as like a callous business owner, you know, you want to be a good person and you, the balance of that is, but you got to make hard calls and the balance is where being well-rounded, it's tough, you know? Yeah. Cause you, if you get too far one direction, you're out of balance. If you get too far the other direction, you're out of balance, you know, that's good. You moved from a small town market to Wichita, so you went from Eldorado to Wichita with your headquarters. What inspired that move? COVID. Oh, really? Interesting. Yeah. And how, I guess they, well, they just had less of it over there and yeah, they did. No, no, I actually, uh, I didn't want to lay anybody off. It just goes back to people, well, balance, I mean, and it just goes back to how I didn't, I didn't, I didn't want to, I didn't, well, I mean, I guess it really goes even deeper than that. You know, I got bills to pay and I got a family to feed and I don't want to, you know, there's that ultimate fear. You know, I think any, any business owner doesn't want to fail their family. So, um, you know, there's only so much landscaping you can do in a town of 12,000 people. You know, I don't, we're, when you really think about landscaping, it's a convenience-based service. So when something like COVID happens, you know, what's the first thing that goes out the window? Convenience-based services. So I had some tough choices to make. So who comes first? Your family and my employees and the ability to provide for them. So. Yeah. I think it was a great move. What's been the best part of that move and it's in your name, right? Grounds guys of Wichita. That was always the name. That was always. Oh, okay. Yep. Yep. That was always the name. Cause that, that was your franchise territory. Yep. Yep. That was the name from 2013. Okay. Yep. Well, what is your territory on that franchise model? How does that work? Basically the greater Wichita metro area. Okay. Yeah. Great. Augusta, Andover throughout the, I did expand it a little bit out to Goddard, um, here in the last three or four years. Yeah. Um, talk again about the winners. Cause I, I'm still like, I had that written down like twice on here. The Kansas winners. Uh, I know you do some snow removal, um, a little bit, like how do you handle that with your good guys? Like, I mean, obviously you've got a great crew. I say it the same way. Cause I get that question all the time. I did the same things in January, I do in July. Okay. Which means I install sprinklers and sod in January, all through the year. Obviously not when it's 20 degrees, but if it's 32 and sunny and no wind, we're out. I mean, if you think of it this way, they're building houses all year long. People are moving, you know, I mean, right now the problem we have is, is I got too much work and not enough people right now. And we've got work stacked up. Yeah. So we're cranking out, you know, custom landscaping jobs right now and leave cleanups and sprinkler systems install and sod install and all kinds of stuff. Yeah. Um, how, how has, uh, with the housing market slowing down just a tad, um, how's that affected you? A little bit, but not much. Yeah. Not, not substantially enough to where you notice, but not enough to be concerned. Yeah. I mean, people just aren't going over the top. Yeah. Right. I mean, like, I mean, even a guy like me, I mean, I'm not, it's not like it's been an extra, I mean, you know, people may have been getting a bacon cheeseburger before now they're just getting a cheeseburger. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. You know what I mean? I mean, people that may have been going out and getting a new car before they're not getting, you know, all the extra bells and whistles on that car, but they're still buying a new car. I mean, people are still building houses. They're just not getting all the upgrades they used to. I think every industry is probably seeing that. You know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, they may not be getting the, the washer that, well, like the Nate Bargatsky thing the other night, you know, your washer may not be calling you to let you know that your load is done. Dad, I promise it's not calling you. Yeah. It may not be calling you to let you know the load is done, you know, but they're still getting the new washer. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. I think that's, I think every industry is kind of seeing that, you know. Where was the moment in that journey? Um, cause you know, whatever it's at six year six, I think the odds start finally going in your favor on a startup or a brand new business model. Uh, where did you feel that momentum shift where you're like, Oh, this is going to work. Well, it shifts all the time. Sure. Yeah. I'm a pusher. So, I mean, I like, I like risk. Yeah. I'm always pushing things. Um, I'm kind of an ADD, ADHD guy. Yeah. Kind of. A lot. Um, uh, year, year four and five for me, it was really tough. I grew it a little too fast, almost ran myself out of business. I grew it so fast. I mean, I had excellent revenue and I had no money. Yeah. Um, and then I had to learn like, Oh man. And then I've done that a couple of times where I've grew it too fast. And then I've, um, I've had years where I couldn't grow it because I, I couldn't figure out how to grow it because it was at a point where it's like, how do I break through? Um, but I think now, now we're at a point where we're just trying to figure out how to get some more infrastructure in place because the customer base where we're at now, like the business has matured enough to where it's like, it's trying to go to the next level. And now I'm being tested to figure out how to take it to the next level. And that's a hard spot to be in because. Is the next level just in the same market? Uh, do you see trying to go into other markets or you think there's still plenty, plenty of opportunity here? Plenty. If, if I could just figure out how to like use, use the tools I have available, you know, it's time for me to mature as a business owner, delegate better, use my staff better. Like we'll take it to the next level. Like that everything's in place now it's time for me to challenge myself a little bit more. Yeah. You know, you see those things everybody does. No, it's good. Uh, yeah. You talk about having a good crew and you keep them year round. What, what goes into retaining good people, especially for tough work? Like you said, there's not a lot of glory in it. I'm a firm believer. I think, I think, um, like everybody has their own philosophy, but mine is just like, I, I care about people, man. Like I care about the people that work for me. I don't judge people off of like, and I can sense it with people. Like I can read how people feel about my staff and I try to treat my staff. I don't care what you do for me, everybody's on the same level. Gotcha. I, that's just me and I care about him equally and I try to pay him very well. I try to, um, I know them. I try to know what they're going through. Not too much, you know, to the level that they're comfortable with. I try to know what they're trying to achieve. I try to know enough about them to know like what they need to be taken care of. Cause the one thing I think that I think a lot of people get it wrong with their staff and I'm providing for them. That's not really true. They're, they're providing for you, not the other way around. So, and I think a lot of people get that wrong. You're not really providing anything for them. They're providing for you. Servant leadership, right? That's right. And you got to remember that. Yeah. They can choose to work anywhere. Yeah. They're choosing to work for you, you know, and you have to remember that every day. They're choosing to work for you. You don't make any money unless they're out there working. Bingo. I hear all the time, they're like, Oh, they should just be lucky that, that, and I'm thinking, and I bought my tongue a lot on that because it's such, such an embedded thing still with a lot of people, you know, and it's, it's an argument. I don't feel like I'm going to win, but it's like, that's such a mentality you got to get rid of. And it's hard cause there's the human side of you that, I mean, I'm guilty of feeling that way. And there's, there's majority of the days I feel the way you're talking, but there's some days I'm like, man, they should appreciate this. This is a good, you know, you, you take some pride in what you build and when you get someone who doesn't appreciate it and takes advantage of it, like that's hard. Well there are times where you lose trust. Correct. Yeah. Well, but there's a time for that too. There's an appropriate time to feel that way. Where if somebody is not appreciating the opportunity, there's a time, but I'm talking about on just the day to day. Yeah. The fact that they choose to show up and do a good job for you. Now, if they're not matching it, then it's out of balance. Yeah. But I'm talking about on a day to day basis. You know, you should appreciate the fact that they choose to show up and work for you. When you do hire, what have you learned on hiring people for your business? Do you get it right every time now? That's what everyone keeps saying. I'm just waiting for someone that's figured it out. Gary V. Yeah. He talks about that. What's his line on that? There's a short clip where a guy stands up and asks the questions. He's like, how do you know if you hire right? He's like, you don't. He's like, and half of you don't want to fire people because you don't want to admit that you suck at hiring. Yeah, that's a good way to put it. I think it's true, but you know, there's another guy I listen to a lot. His name's Walter Bond. He's a former NBA player and I listen to him a lot, a lot. And I watch some of his videos so much. Some of his videos, I have them almost memorized because I just believe in his culture so much. But he talks about you hire for attitude, train for skill. And I've only hired, I think, one or two people in 13 years that had landscaping experience. It's a lot. So it's easier to teach a puppy tricks than an old dog. I really butch that line. It goes something like that. Right. But if you hire somebody that's got the right attitude, you can train them for the position they've been hired for. If they don't have the right attitude and who cares about what the experience is, you know? Yeah. And then all they do is leverage their experience to justify their attitude. Yeah, that's tough. What's the hardest day in 13 years? What was the hardest day? A lot of them. Yeah. You want to talk about the days that were hard? Those are easy. Yeah, I know, right? Reverse that. There's not a lot of them. It's more about what I think every entrepreneur gets brought to their knees at some moment, you know, and then they get back up. But we all have different things that level us and or we bottle up things and then we implode. What are the outside circumstances that caused you to have a bad day? Man, I've had a lot of them. It's hard to pick which one. I mean, I don't remember the exact circumstances of this one. I can tell you how many times I've came home and bawled my eyes out to my wife and told her I can't do it anymore. I can't figure it out. There's just not a solution. You know, I mean, yeah, I want to act like a tough guy, but I think any any true entrepreneur that tells you they don't do that, probably a liar, you know? So not knowing, not seeing an answer is the worst thing. I think that's the hardest part. Yeah, I would agree with that. Because when you when you can figure it out, it's not hard. When you can't find a solution and don't know the road ahead that when if you can find a solution like, oh, we'll do X, Y and Z and it'll work out the work in when you're when you're when you're running it through your head and you can't find a solution. That's when the panic starts to set in and you're like, I can't find a solution. I can't. I can't. I don't know how we're going to figure this out. That's when you're like, if you don't know. So how do you get past that time? I mean, for me, it's real simple. I learned. It's pretty personal, but I'll just tell you, I learned a while back, I mean, I've got some really, really close friends in the grounds guys network. I mean, tight, but, you know, I mean, I matured a lot and I can tell you and sounds kind of cliche, but I went through a really tough time about 13 months ago. I sat in my office and I came to work and, and I had, I'd went to the doctor. I'd had some weird issues going on and I showed up to work and my wife wasn't there. I'm like, where's, where's Heather? Like, I don't know. She got a phone call. She walked out. She left. She, she, she got really upset and walked out and I was like, well, what was she saying? She said, well, I'm not telling them and got up in a rush and left and we haven't seen her. Her dad was probably talking about her dad on the phone and she kind of, and so she came back. Well, I went into my office and she came back in about 30 minutes later and she comes in my office, closes the door. She sits down at my desk and just matter of factly, she's like to the doctor called, she's like, you have cancer. And I'm like, what? You know? And so that was probably one of my hardest times. And so that kind of reset how I looked at things and, and immediately I was like, and the first words out of my mouth, and I think this is totally an entrepreneur thing. I'm like, this is going to negatively impact so many people. And this was in between me building one set of duplexes and they were already finished and the other ones were going up and not finished yet. And then I've got grounds guys and I'm like, this is not what I need right now. You know? And so I looked there, I'm like, I want out of here. I want out of the office. And I'm like, I just, I want out of here. So we called in some of our, our key staff in the office and I'm like, I'm bailing. I'm like, who's all, who's all in here? And they're like, not very many people. I'm like, I'm out the back door. I want it. I don't want anybody to know I'm leaving. You're like, I just need out. So we like make a mad dash out the back door of the building. I'm like, I just, I want out. So I get in my truck and I drive home and I'm like, you know, so I go out on the, on the property I out-competed you on. Yep. Well done. Yeah. So I'm glad I did. I can't give you a hard time now. So I jump on my four-wheeler and I just go out there and I just sat for like three hours straight and it was in the summers in like July and I'm just sitting there and it just like reconnected me and I'm like, God would, you know, what's going to happen? So as an, and you know, I'm like, well, how's this supposed to play out? Like I've got all these people, I've got partners in business, I've got to all these different businesses I've got, you know, all these things going on, this is going to hurt so many people and all these people have trusted me and bought into me and like, and my wife is so mad at me for that. She's like, how can you think like that? I'm like, well, I've got all these people that depend on me, you know? So how I deal with stuff in business, when I lay my head down at night, I just give it all to God. I'm like, whatever my problem is, I'm like, this, I'm not supposed to figure it out. And that was a maturity thing that I had to grow to. And that just happened last year. Like I said, I did that, but I really didn't. I had to. You've got to have inner peace. Yes, exactly. Like, and that, yeah, you nailed it. I was literally just walked into Tyler's office a couple of days ago and was literally in that panic of just like, I have a knot in my stomach, I feel sick, I don't know what to do with this situation. And I think time and time again, you get to that place where you thankfully get reminded and if it's God, whatever that takes for you to get yourself to go, I can't control this. It's not going to change anything. It's not going to help anybody for me to be debilitated in fear. Fear I heard a really good line at a B and I group in Wichita yesterday, Dan Kreis. I don't know if you've met him, you should, you'd love Dan. He's a business coach and franchise background, sold a couple of franchises. And he said, fear is false evidence. It's a great acronym, false evidence appearing real. That's what fear is, you know, danger is real, but fear is a decision for us to put ourselves in that position and false evidence appearing real means like every time you feel fear, say that line and then identify the, you know, that false signal could probably be like, you think you can change this, but you probably can't. And that's powerful. I've never heard that. Yeah, I hadn't either. I was like, so I'm going to be preaching that all the time now. And then some other gal stood up and said an acronym for fear as well. And it was about like, about like seeing the thing that's causing fear and rising above it or whatever. And it was, it was still a good line, but I didn't retain it, but I retained that one. I thought that was a good acronym. So back to this, cause I hijacked this. Are you okay? Oh yeah. Everything's good. Oh yeah. Great. Awesome. Yeah. I'll tell you what, I had to disappear from work for a while. I was gone for a few months and I was freaked out and it totally changed my life. That probably was a really good thing for you. I mean, as an entrepreneur, we just, it's hard to find balance and it doesn't mean it's wrong. Yeah. It doesn't mean it's wrong to go, go, go and do all that, but yeah, talk about a reset to learn how to pull back, learn how to trust your people, learn that, yeah, you're not, you're not the only thing that's going to make this work. And then also finding other things in life and probably care about your people even more and care about yourself in a different way too. Yeah. What's the biggest takeaway? The biggest takeaway for me is you're not going to live forever. And that was the first time in my life where I realized I wasn't invincible. It's that subconscious thing. Every person has the first time in their life where they realize they're not invincible and that was mine. Yeah. That was mine. Everybody has it. I am 45. Okay. Yeah. My wife would laugh if at some point she, you may edit this out, but if you don't, she'll laugh when she hears that. I used to have to ask her, how old am I? How old am I? But you know now. I know now. That's good. That's growth. I quit caring at like what, 35 or something. I'm like, I don't care how old I am. I just asked someone their age yesterday and they had to, they could not think of their age so they thought of the year they were born and they started doing math and they took long enough. I finally just said, so you're 48. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm 48. I'm 46. I've never not known how old I am. Really? But I'm 35. So I don't know if you just stop thinking about how old you are at some point. It'll come. Yeah. I've always been aware. I did get a little confused. I think like in my late 20s, it kind of didn't, like those all kind of blended together. It probably comes and goes where you care and then you don't care. Right. I mean, I'm sure, I don't know. I don't care. Yeah. I'm 21 in my head. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Well, that's good. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. Yeah. That's, that's really good. That's powerful. Oh, I'll text you that acronym so you don't forget. Yeah. On the fear. Yeah. The other thing on that little side note too is, you know, you also got to tell yourself how many times have I not made it through the problem. That's a good look at, look at the past. The reverse. Yeah. You've always figured it out. Yeah. That's really good. Yeah. Progress is another. My sister was telling me that she said, you know, the biggest issue with entrepreneurs and anxiety and depression is that they just think they haven't done it yet and they forget to look backwards. Yeah. And it's a really healthy habit that I suck at deciding, okay, I'm going to look back two years and how much have I, you know, how much have I grown? Yeah. How much, how much have we built that's better or made things better? It's not, it's a, it's a lot easier to be frustrated or looking ahead in your position and looking behind. Um, but you come a long way since, uh, your mom's in town. You're one. Oh yeah. It's crazy. It's crazy. And I don't know how you are, but I self create most of my own problems. Self correct. Self create. Self create. Oh yeah. Yeah. Because if I would just slow down and stop creating my own problem, there's a reason I'm not allowed to assemble furniture in our house from Ikea or paint walls. I'm going to get it done fast. It's probably going to be wrong. Yeah. I, yeah, I, I probably, probably should be a little, little managed a little better and probably quit creating so many problems for myself. Like you leave me to my own devices and I'll, I'll figure out how to get myself in a bigger mess. Yeah. Yeah. You've had vision. Obviously you've had vision. What part, what part of the business do you like and what, what part of the business is really hard for you? Um, you know, you've got, we've got, you got the execution side, the vision side, the operation side, the people side. I'm just, the hardest part for me is just slowing down to think things through. I mean, I probably should. So you're good. You're good at vision though, as identifying opportunities. It was definitely an opportunity guys. I didn't execute it well, but it was right there. Yeah. I'm really good at coming up with ideas. Right. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of them are probably pretty bad, but yeah. And then I'll push them through anyway sometimes and try to, you know, I mean, and I think that's good too though. I mean, like most of the things I've gotten involved in, like everybody's told me, Oh, that's a terrible idea. If they just tell me it's a good idea, I probably wouldn't do it, but yeah, the system, I told them like, Oh, I'm going to prove them wrong. Yeah. Oh, you can't do that. Oh. Who, who in all of your maturing over the last 13 years, who do you have in your life that you trust that now when you take an idea, I personally have had to learn to take my idea and I have a circle of people, Tyler's on the other side is one of them where now I know it's just healthier for me to bring this concept to a few people and hear it all the way out. Yeah. So for me, I've got several other grounds guys, owners that I've grown very close to. I've got several people here in town. I'm pretty close to a lot of people. I have a pretty big network of people I've talked to that are in, that are in business that you trust. Yeah. I'm pretty varied. Yeah. I got a lot of unique relationships. I like people. Yeah. I love to connect with people. So I'll bounce things off a lot of different people so I can get a lot of different opinions. But you know, I mean, I, I talked to everybody, I bounce ideas off everyone. Everybody has something to offer. Yeah. Who holds the most weight to actually stop you in your tracks on an idea? Probably my wife. I was hoping you'd say that for the sake of the podcast. Yeah. I can see the look in her eye a lot of times. Yeah. You're like, honey, you don't say a thing. I heard, message received. She's, you know. So she's been full time with you for how long? She was in the. She was a nurse practitioner. Nurse practitioner. Yeah. Came over full time. Yeah. Two, three years ago. Yeah. How's that been? It's been good. I've never worked with my wife on anything. Well. And she's a lot smarter than me. So it's always interesting. My wife is a lot smarter than me. I can guarantee you that. And she puts up with me. Yeah. So she has put up with a lot for me, so she's. She executes much better than me. So it's interesting, you look back on stuff and it's funny, like when she first came in, it's like, oh, I'm going to teach her all this stuff. And it's funny how quick that turns around. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and probably how quickly you realize the value and, oh, I really need this. Yeah. Right. Like. Yeah. You look, it's like, wow, they learn quicker than I did. Yeah. And the reason I ask the question, I think there's a ton of husband and wives and business together. Yeah. And I'm always curious. Well. Advice on that. I think the relationship in business is different. So I, she doesn't actually work full time in the business. So the goal was never for us to run the business together. You know, this isn't her dream and I'm not going to drag her into the middle of it. I have had to at times, um, to help out, but you know, my dream for her was to build a essentially kind of retire early. She handles some things at the business, you know, she helps out with payroll and some of the other stuff. But my goal is for her to be able to spend more time with our grandkids and be able to have the flexibility. Awesome. So to get the benefit of me around the business. Yeah. So that's kind of like, you know, I don't care how hard I have to work. I want her to have the flexibility. So yeah, she, and she has that. There's times where she doesn't, but more often than not, you know, that was the goal. Yeah. And that, that's a big plus of self-employment. You, the hours are nuts, but you do get to control them. You know, I, I enjoy going to every event my kids do and yeah, a lot of times I have to leave a evening event and go back to work, but yeah, I can get to that event if it's in the middle of the day or it's the morning or it's out of town. Yes. That's super important to me. And that's flexibility of self-employment I think is a huge draw to people. But then when it's like, you still take away personal time, there's still loss, right? But at least you can control where the loss is going to be on time with family. Correct. I agree. What was the hardest part about balancing time and family at the beginning? Just convincing yourself that you had the time to do it. Yeah. You know? Yeah. I mean, but you know, I mean the same time. I mean, I came from such a crazy background. I mean, law enforcement was nuts, man. I mean, the overtime and the court and. That's true. It was absolutely. You had zero control of your schedule. I mean, you're. Oh, it was absolutely crazy. You can't leave work. You're on duty. Yeah, it was nuts. Yeah. I mean, my kids were little when I was doing that, so I did miss out on a lot. Yeah. I don't miss out on it now. Yeah. Good for you. So, I mean. My first core memories, I mean, I have memories, but like memories I have where I like had emotions around a memory for me were around seven that I like. I like remember things, but like at seven, I remember feeling something in that memory and that was kind of my internal. I always told Haley, like when Ellis turns seven, that's I'm going to dial it back. I'm going to dial it back. That took me. That took me two years to actually hit that, you know, and then she's nine to actually break that because it kind of becomes a habit and an addiction on that side where it's not needed, but you're like, but to get to where I want to go, it's needed. But that was kind of my internal compass was like, okay, this is when, and it's not saying that's the right answer. That's just what I did. Yeah. Those first seven years were probably pretty important, but you know, I was around, but I definitely made an effort to be more available at that age, but it was hard. I did not deliver like I said I would. It took a couple of years to unravel and break those patterns and took some therapy too, actually, to figure that part out. You know, you said, I don't think you should beat yourself up. You know, a lot, we live in a world where people beat themselves up over a lot of things. Yeah. They beat themselves up over how they run their business. They beat themselves up over how they perform when they're at work. They beat themselves up over how they parent it. We live in a world where there's just so much information out there. It's just performance as a husband, performance as a wife, performance as a kid, performances. Yeah. I mean, you know what, do your best. And I mean, I look back on, you know, so much stuff. Life's tough, man. Life is tough. And, you know, there's so many people that talk about, you know, how, and this is why I care so much about people, because I learned this when I was a cop, and there's, people live through very difficult situations. I mean, extremely difficult situations. I bet you've seen it all. And that's why I care so much about people. Like I, I'm the guy that'll show up somewhere and people say it about me all the time. Like I'll never make the first contact if I'm in a room full of people. Like I'm not going to be the one that's going to like, say something. I'll stand there and not say a word. Me either. I walk in super quiet. But if you start talking to me, I'll talk to you for three hours on the plane going somewhere. If we start talking, I'll make friends with anybody, but I care very deeply for people. And if I know your situation, I'm going to help you out. And that's just the way that I am, but people need encouragement. People and I say this all the time at work. If you talk to anybody that's ever worked around me, they'll tell you, like I always talk about, I'm like, people need to be led. Yeah. Everybody. I need to be led. It doesn't matter what, what level of the ladder you're on. There's always somebody that needs that next rung. You know? Yeah. Everybody wants to be led by somebody. You have to have it. Everybody needs some encouragement. It doesn't matter. I mean, the CEO of the biggest company on earth, whatever company that is, he's being led by somebody. And I don't know who those people are that are being led by somebody, but everybody's being led by somebody. You have to have it. They need the encouragement. You know? They need to be fed. Everybody's being poured into by somebody, right? So you can't beat yourself up because, I mean, it's just, what's right? It goes back to earlier, before Chevy Dodge, there's no right answer. Right. Everybody's just trying to do their best. Do your best and accept that. Forgive yourself. That's right. That's right. Accept advice. Yeah. That's really good. One last question on the Grounds Guys topic, the building houses. Yeah. Yeah. What's your, what's your short-term goal right now? Everything in 13 years, you're saying it's time to start executing. You've got the stuff. You've got the foundation. You've just established. What's a couple action points for 2026 that you're going to initiate for yourself or for the company? Grounds Guys is going to continue to grow, continue to mature. I've got some plans here in El Dorado to continue to do housing stuff. I mean, just like when I said I was going to open a franchise and do landscaping, I've got some plans to do housing stuff in El Dorado. Good. We need it. Yeah. I agree. Yeah. I mean, I was born here. I'm going to die here. And I'm going to buy that land when you die, but it'll be round two, right? I'll get a shot at it. I've already got, I've got kids and grandkids. Oh, shoot. I'm going to teach them how to compete. I'm going to tell them there's a guy named Sam McVeigh. Yeah. Listen, we're just going to put this up for auction when I go just to tease him, but you're going to win it. I'm going to put it in the trust and I'm going to tell them when they put it up for, I watched the last edition. So the auctioneer, when Jeremy's auctioning it off, that it's got a clause in there. It cannot go to the McVeigh's. It'll be awesome. It'll be awesome. It'll be like, dude, he got me again. Just set up a pattern of that for years. He's not even here and he got me. He got me. Bested me. That's awesome. You know, I've got, I've got plans for, for housing longterm. Good. I mean, just like grounds guys with a longterm thing, the housing's long. I don't, I, when I do something, it's not short term. Good for you. So housing's a longterm thing for me. Do you enjoy that part of it? Oh yeah. Yeah. Good. Oh yeah. That's, that's an infancy thing for me right now. Yeah. Yeah. It's man, so needed. And I know so many people that have figured it out in other areas and I, it would be awesome. So please do figure that out here. I'm going to try more of it. I don't know much about it, but I'm trying. Yeah. I'm trying. I think I can get it figured out. Good. I believe you will. I hope. Yeah. So the, the city's primed for a lot of good things. Yeah, I agree. Really is. Yeah. There's a lot of, a lot of opportunity I think in the future and we're being a bedroom community of Wichita is awesome. I think there's a lot to feed off of there and it's already happening. Yeah. You have a business, successful business you've built at its core in Wichita and you're living here in Eldorado and that's adding a lot of value to Eldorado. And so we do, I mean, I appreciate everything you've done. Um, I know you do a lot for a lot of people and it means a lot that you're still in our community and giving back and, um, but thanks for hanging out. This has been awesome. This is cool. This is a cool thing. When I saw you started this, I was like, this is going to be awesome. I appreciate that. I watched all of them so far. Good. Good. Well, I can't wait till you watch yours. Yeah. Yeah. I learned a lot, man. I told quite a few people that that was just very kind of you to just call me and you, you, you led me, you called me and said, Samuel, this is, this is important. This is going to be good for people. This is going to help someone and you won't know who it's going to help. And just don't stop. Those were exactly his words on that phone call. That was, that was super kind. I've learned something from every single one so far though. Me too. I'm like, these are so cool to watch other owners and learn from them. Like I'm learning so much from all these people. And I love your mindset that it doesn't matter what they're in or what industry, you can still learn something. You know, I learned a lot from Ryan Locke about the cattle industry. It was fascinating. I watched it last night. Yeah. Yeah. He was, he was good. He's such a smooth personality. He is. He's so chill. With me, I'm like, bing, bing, bing. He's the guy that the horse doesn't even know he's on the horse. You know, it's kind of the vibes Ryan puts off. Yep. Yep. Okay. Thanks for hanging out. I'll let you go. Thanks for the hour. Thanks for having me. Bye. Bye. Bye.