Leading Through Loss: Growing ICI Insurance with Ryan Murry | Ep 33

Hey guys, I'm Sam McVey, the host of the Hey guys, I'm Sam McVey, the host of the Killer Growth Podcast, and today I have Killer Growth Podcast, and today I have Killer Growth Podcast, and today I have Ryan Murray, CEO of ICI Insurance. Ryan Murray, CEO of ICI Insurance. Ryan Murray, CEO of ICI Insurance. Thanks for being here, dude. Thanks for being here, dude. Thanks for being here, dude. » Happy to be here. Thanks for having me. » Happy to be here. Thanks for having me. » Happy to be here. Thanks for having me. » Yeah. What are you drinking there? » Yeah. What are you drinking there? » Yeah. What are you drinking there? » Well, I've got a black coffee from Brew » Well, I've got a black coffee from Brew » Well, I've got a black coffee from Brew Tuggo. Tuggo. Tuggo. » Bruco Togo. That's going to be stuck in » Bruco Togo. That's going to be stuck in » Bruco Togo. That's going to be stuck in my head forever. Thanks, Jeremy Sungren. my head forever. Thanks, Jeremy Sungren. my head forever. Thanks, Jeremy Sungren. » Bro to go. Uh, so have you seen any » Bro to go. Uh, so have you seen any » Bro to go. Uh, so have you seen any episodes at all or any clips? episodes at all or any clips? episodes at all or any clips? » I've seen some snippets on it. » I've seen some snippets on it. » I've seen some snippets on it. » Okay, great. All right. Well, we start » Okay, great. All right. Well, we start » Okay, great. All right. Well, we start with an easy soft serve. So, I just like with an easy soft serve. So, I just like with an easy soft serve. So, I just like to know your story and we'll just to know your story and we'll just to know your story and we'll just dialogue from college to what brought dialogue from college to what brought dialogue from college to what brought you to ICI. you to ICI. you to ICI. » Okay. And uh, as much as you want to add » Okay. And uh, as much as you want to add » Okay. And uh, as much as you want to add or subtract, it's up to you. or subtract, it's up to you. or subtract, it's up to you. » Sure. Um, so I I'm from Elorado, » Sure. Um, so I I'm from Elorado, » Sure. Um, so I I'm from Elorado, graduated from Elorado High School in graduated from Elorado High School in graduated from Elorado High School in 99, 99, 99, went to the University of Kansas, um, went to the University of Kansas, um, went to the University of Kansas, um, because I didn't get accepted into the because I didn't get accepted into the because I didn't get accepted into the University of Notre Dame. Um, University of Notre Dame. Um, University of Notre Dame. Um, when I graduated from KU, business when I graduated from KU, business when I graduated from KU, business degree, uh, economics minor, uh, thought degree, uh, economics minor, uh, thought degree, uh, economics minor, uh, thought I wanted to I wanted to I wanted to do something in the in the investment do something in the in the investment do something in the in the investment space. Thought I wanted to be a stock space. Thought I wanted to be a stock space. Thought I wanted to be a stock broker, I think. And so I, um, I moved broker, I think. And so I, um, I moved broker, I think. And so I, um, I moved to Chicago. My dad had never really to Chicago. My dad had never really to Chicago. My dad had never really pressured me to be in the business. My pressured me to be in the business. My pressured me to be in the business. My father joined ICI in 1981, the year I father joined ICI in 1981, the year I father joined ICI in 1981, the year I was born. So, um, I'd been around it my was born. So, um, I'd been around it my was born. So, um, I'd been around it my whole life. I didn't think I wanted to whole life. I didn't think I wanted to whole life. I didn't think I wanted to be in insurance or live in Kansas, quite be in insurance or live in Kansas, quite be in insurance or live in Kansas, quite honestly. honestly. honestly. » So, uh, was in Chicago about 5 years. » So, uh, was in Chicago about 5 years. » So, uh, was in Chicago about 5 years. Had a blast the first few years. I Had a blast the first few years. I Had a blast the first few years. I thought, I don't know why everybody in thought, I don't know why everybody in thought, I don't know why everybody in the world doesn't want to live here in the world doesn't want to live here in the world doesn't want to live here in Chicago. It's such a great place. Chicago. It's such a great place. Chicago. It's such a great place. » City, the winters are long. the cost of » City, the winters are long. the cost of » City, the winters are long. the cost of living is high, the public living is high, the public living is high, the public transportation was outdated. Those were transportation was outdated. Those were transportation was outdated. Those were really the only three negatives that I really the only three negatives that I really the only three negatives that I could come up with when my father said, could come up with when my father said, could come up with when my father said, "I'm hiring somebody this year to help "I'm hiring somebody this year to help "I'm hiring somebody this year to help with the business. It's either going to with the business. It's either going to with the business. It's either going to be you or it's going to be somebody be you or it's going to be somebody be you or it's going to be somebody else." You know, it was time for me to else." You know, it was time for me to else." You know, it was time for me to make a decision. make a decision. make a decision. A lot of my friends had left Chicago. I A lot of my friends had left Chicago. I A lot of my friends had left Chicago. I It had kind of lost its luster a little It had kind of lost its luster a little It had kind of lost its luster a little bit. And so I started thinking, you bit. And so I started thinking, you bit. And so I started thinking, you know, maybe Kansas isn't so bad. And uh know, maybe Kansas isn't so bad. And uh know, maybe Kansas isn't so bad. And uh that certainly rang true when I came that certainly rang true when I came that certainly rang true when I came back. back. back. The little things that you Sorry, The little things that you Sorry, The little things that you Sorry, » you're good. » you're good. » you're good. » You're You're not going to cough as much » You're You're not going to cough as much » You're You're not going to cough as much as Vince Haynes did. He had a severe as Vince Haynes did. He had a severe as Vince Haynes did. He had a severe cough the day before he came in. cough the day before he came in. cough the day before he came in. » What I learned, there were little things » What I learned, there were little things » What I learned, there were little things about Kansas that you took for granted. about Kansas that you took for granted. about Kansas that you took for granted. Just being able to jump in your car and Just being able to jump in your car and Just being able to jump in your car and drive wherever you wanted to go. You drive wherever you wanted to go. You drive wherever you wanted to go. You know, go play golf quickly if you needed know, go play golf quickly if you needed know, go play golf quickly if you needed to. You know, to play golf in the city. to. You know, to play golf in the city. to. You know, to play golf in the city. It was a 8 hour ordeal. You know, you It was a 8 hour ordeal. You know, you It was a 8 hour ordeal. You know, you had to drive an hour and a half to get had to drive an hour and a half to get had to drive an hour and a half to get there. And so really appreciated Kansas there. And so really appreciated Kansas there. And so really appreciated Kansas more. I I I really I loved my Chicago more. I I I really I loved my Chicago more. I I I really I loved my Chicago experience, but don't think I would experience, but don't think I would experience, but don't think I would have appreciated Kansas as much had I have appreciated Kansas as much had I have appreciated Kansas as much had I not done that. So been back here at ICI not done that. So been back here at ICI not done that. So been back here at ICI now 18 years. Um wouldn't change a now 18 years. Um wouldn't change a now 18 years. Um wouldn't change a thing. Got to work with my father for 7 thing. Got to work with my father for 7 thing. Got to work with my father for 7 years. He uh was diagnosed with prostate years. He uh was diagnosed with prostate years. He uh was diagnosed with prostate cancer shortly after I moved back. A lot cancer shortly after I moved back. A lot cancer shortly after I moved back. A lot of people said that's why they of people said that's why they of people said that's why they thought I moved back. thought I moved back. thought I moved back. » Actually, I always thought that » Actually, I always thought that » Actually, I always thought that » we had no idea. No, I had uh I remember » we had no idea. No, I had uh I remember » we had no idea. No, I had uh I remember I had just moved into my first house on I had just moved into my first house on I had just moved into my first house on Jamaica Street. I was moving in and he Jamaica Street. I was moving in and he Jamaica Street. I was moving in and he called and said, "Hey, I got to tell you called and said, "Hey, I got to tell you called and said, "Hey, I got to tell you something. This is no big deal." Um and something. This is no big deal." Um and something. This is no big deal." Um and you know, typically it's very treatable. you know, typically it's very treatable. you know, typically it's very treatable. His was very rare and His was very rare and His was very rare and was aggressive and uh you know he was aggressive and uh you know he was aggressive and uh you know he got really good treatment but at the end got really good treatment but at the end got really good treatment but at the end of the day I mean they said it was 5 to of the day I mean they said it was 5 to of the day I mean they said it was 5 to seven years and he made it just over 6 seven years and he made it just over 6 seven years and he made it just over 6 years and uh he was gone. So we we years and uh he was gone. So we we years and uh he was gone. So we we had time to plan. Um you never have had time to plan. Um you never have had time to plan. Um you never have enough time. There were still certain enough time. There were still certain enough time. There were still certain things we forgot about. Um, but he left things we forgot about. Um, but he left things we forgot about. Um, but he left us in a really good position and uh, us in a really good position and uh, us in a really good position and uh, he, Jim Clinton, all the guys that came he, Jim Clinton, all the guys that came he, Jim Clinton, all the guys that came before us at ICI really laid a great before us at ICI really laid a great before us at ICI really laid a great foundation for that business and I was foundation for that business and I was foundation for that business and I was very blessed. It's probably the wrong very blessed. It's probably the wrong very blessed. It's probably the wrong word to say when you lose your father, word to say when you lose your father, word to say when you lose your father, but was blessed to be in the situation I but was blessed to be in the situation I but was blessed to be in the situation I was to keep the company going because was to keep the company going because was to keep the company going because that's that's all I knew to do at that's that's all I knew to do at that's that's all I knew to do at the time. So, the time. So, the time. So, » yeah. So you came back and you had five » yeah. So you came back and you had five » yeah. So you came back and you had five years. At what point did your dad kind years. At what point did your dad kind years. At what point did your dad kind of step out with his health? of step out with his health? of step out with his health? » Uh he was at his office on Friday and » Uh he was at his office on Friday and » Uh he was at his office on Friday and didn't come back on Monday. Wow. So uh didn't come back on Monday. Wow. So uh didn't come back on Monday. Wow. So uh he never really left. Yeah. he never really left. Yeah. he never really left. Yeah. » Um » Um » Um he we had just signed uh an internal he we had just signed uh an internal he we had just signed uh an internal document that was going to name me document that was going to name me document that was going to name me president really in title only. I wasn't president really in title only. I wasn't president really in title only. I wasn't getting a pay increase and my dad getting a pay increase and my dad getting a pay increase and my dad was still making all the decisions. was still making all the decisions. was still making all the decisions. » Yeah. But it was designed to to let our » Yeah. But it was designed to to let our » Yeah. But it was designed to to let our vendor partners, our you our carrier vendor partners, our you our carrier vendor partners, our you our carrier partners and the employees know. And the partners and the employees know. And the partners and the employees know. And the plan was we were going to let the plan was we were going to let the plan was we were going to let the team know first, hey, here's the team know first, hey, here's the team know first, hey, here's where we're going. Uh my father was where we're going. Uh my father was where we're going. Uh my father was going to become chairman of the board going to become chairman of the board going to become chairman of the board and the plan was it was a 10-year plan and the plan was it was a 10-year plan and the plan was it was a 10-year plan and we didn't make it 30 days. So, and we didn't make it 30 days. So, and we didn't make it 30 days. So, um um um I I don't think he knew that was coming I I don't think he knew that was coming I I don't think he knew that was coming cuz he was very reluctant. I remember cuz he was very reluctant. I remember cuz he was very reluctant. I remember even when he slid the paper across the even when he slid the paper across the even when he slid the paper across the table, he didn't let go of it for about table, he didn't let go of it for about table, he didn't let go of it for about 20 seconds until I said, "Dad, this 20 seconds until I said, "Dad, this 20 seconds until I said, "Dad, this doesn't mean anything. You're still in doesn't mean anything. You're still in doesn't mean anything. You're still in charge. You still own it." Um, but charge. You still own it." Um, but charge. You still own it." Um, but um, um, um, as I said, we we got we had five, six as I said, we we got we had five, six as I said, we we got we had five, six years to do some planning. We just years to do some planning. We just years to do some planning. We just thought we had we just thought we had thought we had we just thought we had thought we had we just thought we had many more. So, many more. So, many more. So, » well, I mean, he's come to work every » well, I mean, he's come to work every » well, I mean, he's come to work every day. I'm sure that's day. I'm sure that's day. I'm sure that's » a little deceiving. » a little deceiving. » a little deceiving. » The first one there. And, uh, » The first one there. And, uh, » The first one there. And, uh, » yeah, he was he was a very hard worker. » yeah, he was he was a very hard worker. » yeah, he was he was a very hard worker. very he was a brilliant businessman, way very he was a brilliant businessman, way very he was a brilliant businessman, way ahead of his time. He he had an agency ahead of his time. He he had an agency ahead of his time. He he had an agency that was I would say years ahead of most that was I would say years ahead of most that was I would say years ahead of most of his competitors at that time. So of his competitors at that time. So of his competitors at that time. So » I I never knew Tom, but I always heard » I I never knew Tom, but I always heard » I I never knew Tom, but I always heard amazing things about him. I think when amazing things about him. I think when amazing things about him. I think when he I remember when he passed hearing he I remember when he passed hearing he I remember when he passed hearing about it, but I I never knew him. I was about it, but I I never knew him. I was about it, but I I never knew him. I was just I don't know what year was that? just I don't know what year was that? just I don't know what year was that? » 2015. So um Okay. March 13th. Um Friday » 2015. So um Okay. March 13th. Um Friday » 2015. So um Okay. March 13th. Um Friday the 13th. March 13th of 2025. So the 13th. March 13th of 2025. So the 13th. March 13th of 2025. So » Okay. » Okay. » Okay. » No, 2015. So, we're coming up on 11 » No, 2015. So, we're coming up on 11 » No, 2015. So, we're coming up on 11 years um here in just a couple weeks, years um here in just a couple weeks, years um here in just a couple weeks, which is hard to believe. which is hard to believe. which is hard to believe. » Yeah, that's honestly when I » Yeah, that's honestly when I » Yeah, that's honestly when I started to meet everybody in town was started to meet everybody in town was started to meet everybody in town was around then. Probably 2014 is kind of around then. Probably 2014 is kind of around then. Probably 2014 is kind of when I was kind of like, hello, hello when I was kind of like, hello, hello when I was kind of like, hello, hello world. Uh started a business and uh world. Uh started a business and uh world. Uh started a business and uh being homeschooled. I didn't know I being homeschooled. I didn't know I being homeschooled. I didn't know I lived here with all you guys the whole lived here with all you guys the whole lived here with all you guys the whole time. Didn't know anybody uh until time. Didn't know anybody uh until time. Didn't know anybody uh until started a business. And then Dave started a business. And then Dave started a business. And then Dave Callaway introduced me to everyone. And Callaway introduced me to everyone. And Callaway introduced me to everyone. And that's where I heard about Tom the most that's where I heard about Tom the most that's where I heard about Tom the most was Dave Callaway. Uh, I loved his was Dave Callaway. Uh, I loved his was Dave Callaway. Uh, I loved his stories about stories about stories about » which is that's a great story because » which is that's a great story because » which is that's a great story because they were fierce competitors, you know, they were fierce competitors, you know, they were fierce competitors, you know, all through my childhood. I mean, I did all through my childhood. I mean, I did all through my childhood. I mean, I did not think they liked each other and they not think they liked each other and they not think they liked each other and they probably didn't. Um, and I remember they probably didn't. Um, and I remember they probably didn't. Um, and I remember I was home from college and my my I was home from college and my my I was home from college and my my father, my parents were building the father, my parents were building the father, my parents were building the house that they're in now and it was house that they're in now and it was house that they're in now and it was nothing but sand in the front yard and nothing but sand in the front yard and nothing but sand in the front yard and we're standing there walking through and we're standing there walking through and we're standing there walking through it and all of a sudden this big suburban it and all of a sudden this big suburban it and all of a sudden this big suburban just comes in and just goes bouncing just comes in and just goes bouncing just comes in and just goes bouncing over the curb and comes driving right up over the curb and comes driving right up over the curb and comes driving right up in front and Dave Callaway hops out and in front and Dave Callaway hops out and in front and Dave Callaway hops out and he comes out and just starts talking to he comes out and just starts talking to he comes out and just starts talking to my dad like they're old friends. How you my dad like they're old friends. How you my dad like they're old friends. How you doing? Asking about the house, blah doing? Asking about the house, blah doing? Asking about the house, blah. And I'm thinking I'm confused. And blah. And I'm thinking I'm confused. And blah. And I'm thinking I'm confused. And and so Dave gets back in his car and so Dave gets back in his car and so Dave gets back in his car and drives off. And I said, "Dad, I didn't drives off. And I said, "Dad, I didn't drives off. And I said, "Dad, I didn't think Dave liked you." And he goes, think Dave liked you." And he goes, think Dave liked you." And he goes, "That's the first time he's spoken to me "That's the first time he's spoken to me "That's the first time he's spoken to me in 25 years." So it's interesting once in 25 years." So it's interesting once in 25 years." So it's interesting once you get out of the insurance business, you get out of the insurance business, you get out of the insurance business, competitors aren't I mean, they can competitors aren't I mean, they can competitors aren't I mean, they can become friends now, I think. And uh I become friends now, I think. And uh I become friends now, I think. And uh I think about that day for me if that time think about that day for me if that time think about that day for me if that time comes that uh comes that uh comes that uh » yeah John Banks has told me several » yeah John Banks has told me several » yeah John Banks has told me several times that Dave Callaway is a very times that Dave Callaway is a very times that Dave Callaway is a very different guy uh from building his different guy uh from building his different guy uh from building his insurance company to selling out. It was insurance company to selling out. It was insurance company to selling out. It was a very different version. Same guy at a very different version. Same guy at a very different version. Same guy at his core but I never got to see the his core but I never got to see the his core but I never got to see the crazy competitive side of Dave Callaway. crazy competitive side of Dave Callaway. crazy competitive side of Dave Callaway. And what was his insurance company And what was his insurance company And what was his insurance company called? called? called? » Was Callaway Douglas. » Was Callaway Douglas. » Was Callaway Douglas. » Callaway Douglas. And then it was » Callaway Douglas. And then it was » Callaway Douglas. And then it was something else at the point. something else at the point. something else at the point. » HR. and then uh maybe DJ&P somewhere in » HR. and then uh maybe DJ&P somewhere in » HR. and then uh maybe DJ&P somewhere in there and then it finished with uh there and then it finished with uh there and then it finished with uh Willis or USI if I remember right. So Willis or USI if I remember right. So Willis or USI if I remember right. So ton of consolidation going on on our ton of consolidation going on on our ton of consolidation going on on our going on in our industry. going on in our industry. going on in our industry. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Back then and even more so today. But » Back then and even more so today. But » Back then and even more so today. But » for sure. Um so talk about your dad. » for sure. Um so talk about your dad. » for sure. Um so talk about your dad. Your dad moves on. You're taking over. Your dad moves on. You're taking over. Your dad moves on. You're taking over. Not a traditional way to take over a Not a traditional way to take over a Not a traditional way to take over a family business. No. Um, what was that family business. No. Um, what was that family business. No. Um, what was that first two years like? Um, » the hardest two years of my life. » the hardest two years of my life. » Yeah. Yeah. » Wasn't expecting that question. Um, » Wasn't expecting that question. Um, » it was » was a lot of hours. It was um you know » was a lot of hours. It was um you know that wasn't wasn't uncommon to be down that wasn't wasn't uncommon to be down that wasn't wasn't uncommon to be down there in the office by myself till there in the office by myself till there in the office by myself till 8 9:00 at night. Um 8 9:00 at night. Um 8 9:00 at night. Um so it was it was hard on my health. It so it was it was hard on my health. It so it was it was hard on my health. It was hard on my stress. It was um you was hard on my stress. It was um you was hard on my stress. It was um you know I was single at the time so I can't know I was single at the time so I can't know I was single at the time so I can't say it was hard on my family. you know, say it was hard on my family. you know, say it was hard on my family. you know, if if if had I had I had family responsibilities had I had I had family responsibilities had I had I had family responsibilities and children at the time, it would and children at the time, it would and children at the time, it would have been a lot more difficult. You have been a lot more difficult. You have been a lot more difficult. You know, fortunately, the only thing I know, fortunately, the only thing I know, fortunately, the only thing I had to do was to figure out how to keep had to do was to figure out how to keep had to do was to figure out how to keep the business going. And um the business going. And um the business going. And um » it's kind of interesting you ask about » it's kind of interesting you ask about » it's kind of interesting you ask about the first two years. The after one year, the first two years. The after one year, the first two years. The after one year, I was almost convinced that I couldn't I was almost convinced that I couldn't I was almost convinced that I couldn't do it. And so I called the only guy that do it. And so I called the only guy that do it. And so I called the only guy that I knew that had evaluated our company I knew that had evaluated our company I knew that had evaluated our company before or uh yeah and uh this guy was before or uh yeah and uh this guy was before or uh yeah and uh this guy was one of the biggest pessimists you'll one of the biggest pessimists you'll one of the biggest pessimists you'll ever meet. And so when I called him, I ever meet. And so when I called him, I ever meet. And so when I called him, I fully expected him to say, "I knew you fully expected him to say, "I knew you fully expected him to say, "I knew you couldn't do this. You know, you're not couldn't do this. You know, you're not couldn't do this. You know, you're not cut out for this." Blah blah. I I cut out for this." Blah blah. I I cut out for this." Blah blah. I I called him and I said, "Hey, I I I think called him and I said, "Hey, I I I think called him and I said, "Hey, I I I think it might be time to sell. I'm worried it might be time to sell. I'm worried it might be time to sell. I'm worried I'm going to ruin my father's legacy. I I'm going to ruin my father's legacy. I I'm going to ruin my father's legacy. I don't really know what I'm doing." And don't really know what I'm doing." And don't really know what I'm doing." And uh instead of beating me up, he said, uh instead of beating me up, he said, uh instead of beating me up, he said, "Well, how long's it been?" And I said, "Well, how long's it been?" And I said, "Well, how long's it been?" And I said, "It's been right at 12 months." And he "It's been right at 12 months." And he "It's been right at 12 months." And he said, "Call me back in 18 months." And I said, "Call me back in 18 months." And I said, "Call me back in 18 months." And I said, "Why said, "Why said, "Why » from that day or like » from that day or like » from that day or like » no?" No, 6 months. » no?" No, 6 months. » no?" No, 6 months. » Okay. » Okay. » Okay. » I said, "Why?" And he said, "I've done a » I said, "Why?" And he said, "I've done a » I said, "Why?" And he said, "I've done a lot of family perpetuation with lot of family perpetuation with lot of family perpetuation with agencies." And he said, "For whatever agencies." And he said, "For whatever agencies." And he said, "For whatever reason, it it takes 18 months for reason, it it takes 18 months for reason, it it takes 18 months for the next generation to figure it out." the next generation to figure it out." the next generation to figure it out." And I wasn't thrilled with that answer, And I wasn't thrilled with that answer, And I wasn't thrilled with that answer, but I'm thinking this is around March. but I'm thinking this is around March. but I'm thinking this is around March. I'm like, okay, I just got to get I'm like, okay, I just got to get I'm like, okay, I just got to get through the summer and uh and I'll call through the summer and uh and I'll call through the summer and uh and I'll call him back. And I don't know if there's him back. And I don't know if there's him back. And I don't know if there's some magic to that 18month number or some magic to that 18month number or some magic to that 18month number or whatever, but it it was it was probably whatever, but it it was it was probably whatever, but it it was it was probably around July or August where I felt like around July or August where I felt like around July or August where I felt like things started clicking for us. And I things started clicking for us. And I things started clicking for us. And I thought I went from thinking I was not thought I went from thinking I was not thought I went from thinking I was not going to be able to do this to, hey, I I going to be able to do this to, hey, I I going to be able to do this to, hey, I I might be pretty decent at this. And so might be pretty decent at this. And so might be pretty decent at this. And so um few months later we did our first um few months later we did our first um few months later we did our first acquisition uh which is something that we were uh which is something that we were uh which is something that we were planning to do when my father was planning to do when my father was planning to do when my father was around. But when he got his diagnosis around. But when he got his diagnosis around. But when he got his diagnosis his um his cancer diagnosis and his um his cancer diagnosis and his um his cancer diagnosis and his priorities changed. Instead of going out priorities changed. Instead of going out priorities changed. Instead of going out and taking more risk and borrowing more and taking more risk and borrowing more and taking more risk and borrowing more money he you know the mission money he you know the mission money he you know the mission changed to let's let's make sure we've changed to let's let's make sure we've changed to let's let's make sure we've got enough money got enough money got enough money » set aside for your mom to be okay » set aside for your mom to be okay » set aside for your mom to be okay because my father passed at 62 years because my father passed at 62 years because my father passed at 62 years old. So he was pretty young and of old. So he was pretty young and of old. So he was pretty young and of course my mom is is still around and uh course my mom is is still around and uh course my mom is is still around and uh we knew she had many good years left. So we knew she had many good years left. So we knew she had many good years left. So um » so the magic happened at 18 months. » so the magic happened at 18 months. That's interesting. That's interesting. That's interesting. » It it it was interesting. Um » It it it was interesting. Um » It it it was interesting. Um » I I can't imagine the » I I can't imagine the » I I can't imagine the pressure. the pressure. the pressure. I've cried a lot about my business I've cried a lot about my business I've cried a lot about my business endeavors. You know what I mean? like endeavors. You know what I mean? like endeavors. You know what I mean? like I've I've been in some real low times I've I've been in some real low times I've I've been in some real low times and that happens every year. Um but just and that happens every year. Um but just and that happens every year. Um but just the pressure of if it was the legacy the pressure of if it was the legacy the pressure of if it was the legacy side of it, the do I deserve to be here, side of it, the do I deserve to be here, side of it, the do I deserve to be here, the you know positioning yourself in a the you know positioning yourself in a the you know positioning yourself in a place that for everybody cuz that's place that for everybody cuz that's place that for everybody cuz that's that's a lot of dynamics. It's not just that's a lot of dynamics. It's not just that's a lot of dynamics. It's not just okay now I have the business. There's okay now I have the business. There's okay now I have the business. There's how many people at that time how many people at that time how many people at that time » that you're in charge of? » that you're in charge of? » that you're in charge of? » Uh 22 at the time. 20 somewhere in that » Uh 22 at the time. 20 somewhere in that » Uh 22 at the time. 20 somewhere in that range. Yeah. range. Yeah. range. Yeah. » And now how many today? » And now how many today? » And now how many today? 75. 75. 75. » Yeah, » Yeah, » Yeah, » good job. » good job. » good job. » Yeah, we've had good, really good » Yeah, we've had good, really good » Yeah, we've had good, really good growth. Killer growth one myself. growth. Killer growth one myself. growth. Killer growth one myself. » There you go. Let's go. » There you go. Let's go. » There you go. Let's go. » Perfect. » Perfect. » Perfect. » Um, and yeah, obviously you have some » Um, and yeah, obviously you have some » Um, and yeah, obviously you have some solid people around you. Talk about solid people around you. Talk about solid people around you. Talk about that. You have people that have been that. You have people that have been that. You have people that have been there a long time. there a long time. there a long time. » Really long time. » Really long time. » Really long time. » Partnered with you. » Partnered with you. » Partnered with you. » Yeah. So, so two other equity partners » Yeah. So, so two other equity partners » Yeah. So, so two other equity partners uh were Dusty Davis, who has, and I uh were Dusty Davis, who has, and I uh were Dusty Davis, who has, and I always screw up how long he's been here. always screw up how long he's been here. always screw up how long he's been here. It's a long time. It's probably between It's a long time. It's probably between It's a long time. It's probably between 25 and 30 years. Um, and then Lonnie 25 and 30 years. Um, and then Lonnie 25 and 30 years. Um, and then Lonnie Courier joined ICI in the late '9s. So, Courier joined ICI in the late '9s. So, Courier joined ICI in the late '9s. So, Lonnie's somewhere between 20 and 25 Lonnie's somewhere between 20 and 25 Lonnie's somewhere between 20 and 25 years. Um, years. Um, years. Um, I don't think it's more than 25 years, I don't think it's more than 25 years, I don't think it's more than 25 years, but uh that they were a great help. but uh that they were a great help. but uh that they were a great help. And then we started we we didn't really And then we started we we didn't really And then we started we we didn't really have departmental leaders or anything. When departmental leaders or anything. When departmental leaders or anything. When when my father was here, the when my father was here, the when my father was here, the organizational chart was him and then organizational chart was him and then organizational chart was him and then everybody else. And so he knew about everybody else. And so he knew about everybody else. And so he knew about everything that happened in the everything that happened in the everything that happened in the organization, which organization, which organization, which » I I don't know how he did it. And » I I don't know how he did it. And » I I don't know how he did it. And everybody I talked to, he's like, "Your everybody I talked to, he's like, "Your everybody I talked to, he's like, "Your dad used to call me every day." And I'm dad used to call me every day." And I'm dad used to call me every day." And I'm like, "I don't know how you had the like, "I don't know how you had the like, "I don't know how you had the time." Um, time." Um, time." Um, » but I remember shortly after he was » but I remember shortly after he was » but I remember shortly after he was gone, his assistant came in with a list gone, his assistant came in with a list gone, his assistant came in with a list and she slid it across my desk and I'm and she slid it across my desk and I'm and she slid it across my desk and I'm reading it and it's saying toilet paper reading it and it's saying toilet paper reading it and it's saying toilet paper and three- ring binders and a few and three- ring binders and a few and three- ring binders and a few things. And I said, "What is this?" And things. And I said, "What is this?" And things. And I said, "What is this?" And she said, "It's our Sam's list." And I she said, "It's our Sam's list." And I she said, "It's our Sam's list." And I said, "Why are you giving it to me?" She said, "Why are you giving it to me?" She said, "Why are you giving it to me?" She says, "Well, your dad used to get up says, "Well, your dad used to get up says, "Well, your dad used to get up every Saturday and go to Sam's, fulfill every Saturday and go to Sam's, fulfill every Saturday and go to Sam's, fulfill all our office supply orders." And I all our office supply orders." And I all our office supply orders." And I said, 'Well, said, 'Well, said, 'Well, » we're not going to do that anymore. Um, » we're not going to do that anymore. Um, » we're not going to do that anymore. Um, I think my dad liked going to Sam's for I think my dad liked going to Sam's for I think my dad liked going to Sam's for the free snacks, but uh, I said, "We the free snacks, but uh, I said, "We the free snacks, but uh, I said, "We » there's this » there's this » there's this » there's this business called Amazon. » there's this business called Amazon. » there's this business called Amazon. We're going to sign up for an account We're going to sign up for an account We're going to sign up for an account and that's how we're going to get our and that's how we're going to get our and that's how we're going to get our supplies." I don't show up. supplies." I don't show up. supplies." I don't show up. » But, uh, there were a lot of » But, uh, there were a lot of » But, uh, there were a lot of changes. is like I said, my father was changes. is like I said, my father was changes. is like I said, my father was brilliant businessman, but you get I brilliant businessman, but you get I brilliant businessman, but you get I think any business owner gets stuck think any business owner gets stuck think any business owner gets stuck doing » things the same way they've always done » things the same way they've always done » things the same way they've always done it. And and it's nice to have a fresh it. And and it's nice to have a fresh it. And and it's nice to have a fresh perspective. I mean, quite honestly, perspective. I mean, quite honestly, perspective. I mean, quite honestly, I've been the uh the CEO now for this I've been the uh the CEO now for this I've been the uh the CEO now for this will be 11 years and I'm will be 11 years and I'm will be 11 years and I'm wondering, you know, is it time to let wondering, you know, is it time to let wondering, you know, is it time to let somebody else come in and take a look at somebody else come in and take a look at somebody else come in and take a look at what I'm doing and see if there's a what I'm doing and see if there's a what I'm doing and see if there's a better way? better way? better way? » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » And I have hired some good people. Our » And I have hired some good people. Our » And I have hired some good people. Our COO is is a brilliant operations guy. COO is is a brilliant operations guy. COO is is a brilliant operations guy. sharp guy. sharp guy. sharp guy. » Um, » Um, » Um, uh, our Charlene, our HR manager, uh, our Charlene, our HR manager, uh, our Charlene, our HR manager, was tremendously helpful when we was tremendously helpful when we was tremendously helpful when we were when I was getting started because were when I was getting started because were when I was getting started because the other thing we found is there were the other thing we found is there were the other thing we found is there were there were a lot of employees that we there were a lot of employees that we there were a lot of employees that we found out pretty quick were team Tom and found out pretty quick were team Tom and found out pretty quick were team Tom and were never going to be team Ryan. And so were never going to be team Ryan. And so were never going to be team Ryan. And so that'd be tough. that'd be tough. that'd be tough. » Um, » Um, » Um, » so we had to move them out unfortunately » so we had to move them out unfortunately » so we had to move them out unfortunately if they didn't self- select. and uh if they didn't self- select. and uh if they didn't self- select. and uh Charlene was critical in in building Charlene was critical in in building Charlene was critical in in building the team that wanted to be there for the team that wanted to be there for the team that wanted to be there for the right reasons and for the right reasons and for the right reasons and for the current leadership. So current leadership. So current leadership. So » I when researching it says 1885 is when » I when researching it says 1885 is when » I when researching it says 1885 is when ICI was found. Explain that to me. ICI was found. Explain that to me. ICI was found. Explain that to me. That's a long time ago, Ryan. That's a long time ago, Ryan. That's a long time ago, Ryan. » That's a little bit of a misnomer. So uh » That's a little bit of a misnomer. So uh » That's a little bit of a misnomer. So uh if you go back to our conversation a if you go back to our conversation a if you go back to our conversation a little bit ago about Callaway Douglas. little bit ago about Callaway Douglas. little bit ago about Callaway Douglas. So Jim Clinton who founded ICI So Jim Clinton who founded ICI So Jim Clinton who founded ICI actually worked at Callaway Douglas. And actually worked at Callaway Douglas. And actually worked at Callaway Douglas. And so he split away behind their backs. so he split away behind their backs. so he split away behind their backs. But uh But uh But uh » And this was before Dave, right? This » And this was before Dave, right? This » And this was before Dave, right? This was the day. was the day. was the day. » This was about the time Dave was » This was about the time Dave was » This was about the time Dave was joining. joining. joining. » Gotcha. Okay. Cuz I' I think I've heard » Gotcha. Okay. Cuz I' I think I've heard » Gotcha. Okay. Cuz I' I think I've heard this story. this story. this story. » Yeah. And and I'm sure there's multiple » Yeah. And and I'm sure there's multiple » Yeah. And and I'm sure there's multiple sides to it. So I'm not even going to sides to it. So I'm not even going to sides to it. So I'm not even going to tell you the side that I've heard. tell you the side that I've heard. tell you the side that I've heard. But but the bottom line is they all But but the bottom line is they all But but the bottom line is they all weren't going to coexist together. I I weren't going to coexist together. I I weren't going to coexist together. I I think is is what Jim decided. So he went think is is what Jim decided. So he went think is is what Jim decided. So he went out again behind Callaway Douglas's back out again behind Callaway Douglas's back out again behind Callaway Douglas's back and approached it was called uh Bacon and approached it was called uh Bacon and approached it was called uh Bacon Insurance and then it was JC Hoy and Insurance and then it was JC Hoy and Insurance and then it was JC Hoy and Company and it was actually those Company and it was actually those Company and it was actually those companies that had roots dating back to companies that had roots dating back to companies that had roots dating back to 1885. 1885. 1885. Um Jim bought those two and merged them Um Jim bought those two and merged them Um Jim bought those two and merged them and formed Insurance Center Inc. That and formed Insurance Center Inc. That and formed Insurance Center Inc. That was actually in December of 81. So, so was actually in December of 81. So, so was actually in December of 81. So, so ICI as an entity has only exists since ' ICI as an entity has only exists since ' ICI as an entity has only exists since ' 81, 81, 81, » but because of mergers and acquisitions, » but because of mergers and acquisitions, » but because of mergers and acquisitions, you can you can you can » I think when they hired the marketing » I think when they hired the marketing » I think when they hired the marketing company in the early 2000s that uh came company in the early 2000s that uh came company in the early 2000s that uh came up with our logo, put established 1885 up with our logo, put established 1885 up with our logo, put established 1885 on there because they were trying on there because they were trying on there because they were trying to convey longevity and to convey longevity and to convey longevity and » Oh, yeah. » Oh, yeah. » Oh, yeah. » Um » Um » Um » but yeah, so that's another » but yeah, so that's another » but yeah, so that's another interesting piece of the story is um Jim interesting piece of the story is um Jim interesting piece of the story is um Jim couldn't let anybody know that he was couldn't let anybody know that he was couldn't let anybody know that he was starting this agency. So he was putting starting this agency. So he was putting starting this agency. So he was putting anonymous ads out in the paper for anonymous ads out in the paper for anonymous ads out in the paper for salespeople. So my father got this salespeople. So my father got this salespeople. So my father got this publication. I think it was the Kansas publication. I think it was the Kansas publication. I think it was the Kansas Association of Association of Association of » found out » found out » found out » my dad was working for a small agency in » my dad was working for a small agency in » my dad was working for a small agency in Humboldt, Kansas. I was born in Shenoot. Humboldt, Kansas. I was born in Shenoot. Humboldt, Kansas. I was born in Shenoot. Um Um Um » and so he responded and he said, "You » and so he responded and he said, "You » and so he responded and he said, "You know, I've got a conflict of interest. I know, I've got a conflict of interest. I know, I've got a conflict of interest. I I actually work for an current I actually work for an current I actually work for an current independent agency and he doesn't know independent agency and he doesn't know independent agency and he doesn't know I'm looking." And Jim said, "Well, I I I'm looking." And Jim said, "Well, I I I'm looking." And Jim said, "Well, I I kind of do, too." So Jim said, "I'm kind of do, too." So Jim said, "I'm kind of do, too." So Jim said, "I'm going to meet you at this diner in going to meet you at this diner in going to meet you at this diner in Emporia, Kansas, and I'll wear a yellow Emporia, Kansas, and I'll wear a yellow Emporia, Kansas, and I'll wear a yellow shirt and I'll sit in the back. If you shirt and I'll sit in the back. If you shirt and I'll sit in the back. If you walk in and see me and there's a walk in and see me and there's a walk in and see me and there's a conflict, just walk right out." And so, conflict, just walk right out." And so, conflict, just walk right out." And so, um, um, um, » so yeah, he he held the meeting in » so yeah, he he held the meeting in » so yeah, he he held the meeting in Emporia to kind of throw my dad off the Emporia to kind of throw my dad off the Emporia to kind of throw my dad off the scent because he also knew that scent because he also knew that scent because he also knew that » if anybody if the job was in El Dorado, » if anybody if the job was in El Dorado, » if anybody if the job was in El Dorado, that was going to zero in on who it was. that was going to zero in on who it was. that was going to zero in on who it was. So, uh, yeah, they had 2 and 1 half hour So, uh, yeah, they had 2 and 1 half hour So, uh, yeah, they had 2 and 1 half hour meeting. I was there in a baby carrier meeting. I was there in a baby carrier meeting. I was there in a baby carrier and my mom was there and my mom was there and my mom was there and 2 and 1 half hours later he said, "You 2 and 1 half hours later he said, "You 2 and 1 half hours later he said, "You know, the job's actually in El Dredo and know, the job's actually in El Dredo and know, the job's actually in El Dredo and can you start Monday?" And my dad packed can you start Monday?" And my dad packed can you start Monday?" And my dad packed up over the weekend and moved to El up over the weekend and moved to El up over the weekend and moved to El Dredo and wow, the rest is history, as Dredo and wow, the rest is history, as Dredo and wow, the rest is history, as they say. they say. they say. » As they say. Yeah. I remember uh parts » As they say. Yeah. I remember uh parts » As they say. Yeah. I remember uh parts of Dave's story. Uh and they were of Dave's story. Uh and they were of Dave's story. Uh and they were classic Dave. I mean, he was working classic Dave. I mean, he was working classic Dave. I mean, he was working angles. It cracked me up. I think he angles. It cracked me up. I think he angles. It cracked me up. I think he told me that a version of that story told me that a version of that story told me that a version of that story three different ways over the years of three different ways over the years of three different ways over the years of him being my mentor of him being my mentor of him being my mentor of » well it was an ugly breakup and so and » well it was an ugly breakup and so and » well it was an ugly breakup and so and therefore there was quite the divide in therefore there was quite the divide in therefore there was quite the divide in the community the community the community » because he had a divide with his own » because he had a divide with his own » because he had a divide with his own dad. I mean it was there was a lot going dad. I mean it was there was a lot going dad. I mean it was there was a lot going on at that time Dave with his dad and on at that time Dave with his dad and on at that time Dave with his dad and » and I don't think I knew that. » and I don't think I knew that. » and I don't think I knew that. » Yeah. Yeah. So I think it was like it » Yeah. Yeah. So I think it was like it » Yeah. Yeah. So I think it was like it was sounded like it was like everybody was sounded like it was like everybody was sounded like it was like everybody kind of need to go their separate ways kind of need to go their separate ways kind of need to go their separate ways and sounds like everybody did okay. and sounds like everybody did okay. and sounds like everybody did okay. » Yeah. So » Yeah. So » Yeah. So » so that's that's the big win. Okay. So » so that's that's the big win. Okay. So » so that's that's the big win. Okay. So 1885 uh talk about ICI's roots like when 1885 uh talk about ICI's roots like when 1885 uh talk about ICI's roots like when ICI in 81 ICI in 81 ICI in 81 » was formed you guys what was your » was formed you guys what was your » was formed you guys what was your specialty? Um so you are a broker right? specialty? Um so you are a broker right? specialty? Um so you are a broker right? So you're selling policies you So you're selling policies you So you're selling policies you represent carriers. represent carriers. represent carriers. » Yep. » Yep. » Yep. » If I'm saying that right. » If I'm saying that right. » If I'm saying that right. » Yep. » Yep. » Yep. » Uh then you go to businesses. Did you » Uh then you go to businesses. Did you » Uh then you go to businesses. Did you guys have a certain niche? guys have a certain niche? guys have a certain niche? » Yes. » Yes. » Yes. » Uh back then it was a lot of oil and » Uh back then it was a lot of oil and » Uh back then it was a lot of oil and gas. Yeah. gas. Yeah. gas. Yeah. » We've always been primarily commercial. » We've always been primarily commercial. » We've always been primarily commercial. Um, so business insurance, uh, as we've Um, so business insurance, uh, as we've Um, so business insurance, uh, as we've acquired over the years, we've be we've acquired over the years, we've be we've acquired over the years, we've be we've gotten more and more involved in in gotten more and more involved in in gotten more and more involved in in personal insurance, home and auto, but personal insurance, home and auto, but personal insurance, home and auto, but back then it was primarily but back then it was primarily but back then it was primarily commercial. I remember there was a there commercial. I remember there was a there commercial. I remember there was a there was a problem. There was a shortage of was a problem. There was a shortage of was a problem. There was a shortage of carriers or lack of capacity for large carriers or lack of capacity for large carriers or lack of capacity for large property schedules, especially for property schedules, especially for property schedules, especially for cities. And I remember my my father and cities. And I remember my my father and cities. And I remember my my father and Jim and Dave Neil, who was also one of Jim and Dave Neil, who was also one of Jim and Dave Neil, who was also one of the original partners, they went to the original partners, they went to the original partners, they went to Lloyds of London, the market over Lloyds of London, the market over Lloyds of London, the market over there, and basically convinced a bunch there, and basically convinced a bunch there, and basically convinced a bunch of carriers to split the risk. And I of carriers to split the risk. And I of carriers to split the risk. And I mean, this would have been 82 83. mean, this would have been 82 83. mean, this would have been 82 83. And that was the way they were able And that was the way they were able And that was the way they were able to start getting I think the city of El to start getting I think the city of El to start getting I think the city of El Dredo, I mean, that might have been Dredo, I mean, that might have been Dredo, I mean, that might have been their first account probably was their first account probably was their first account probably was municipal account. municipal account. municipal account. There was a new branch manager at EMC There was a new branch manager at EMC There was a new branch manager at EMC Insurance and they've got a regional Insurance and they've got a regional Insurance and they've got a regional office here in Witchah and he was brand office here in Witchah and he was brand office here in Witchah and he was brand new. My dad called him up and said, "Hey new. My dad called him up and said, "Hey new. My dad called him up and said, "Hey Bernie, you guys need to find a way Bernie, you guys need to find a way Bernie, you guys need to find a way to write cities." And Bernie says, to write cities." And Bernie says, to write cities." And Bernie says, "Yeah, okay." Probably neither one of "Yeah, okay." Probably neither one of "Yeah, okay." Probably neither one of them knew what they were doing, but that them knew what they were doing, but that them knew what they were doing, but that was the genesis of the EMC uh municipal was the genesis of the EMC uh municipal was the genesis of the EMC uh municipal program. And so today, EMC writes the program. And so today, EMC writes the program. And so today, EMC writes the majority of governmental entities in majority of governmental entities in majority of governmental entities in Kansas. We write over a hundred Kansas. We write over a hundred Kansas. We write over a hundred probably. um that we've had on I probably. um that we've had on I probably. um that we've had on I mean some of them are 20 plus year mean some of them are 20 plus year mean some of them are 20 plus year relationships and that's cities uh relationships and that's cities uh relationships and that's cities uh counties, townships, rural water counties, townships, rural water counties, townships, rural water districts, school districts. I mean um districts, school districts. I mean um districts, school districts. I mean um all of those we we include in that niche all of those we we include in that niche all of those we we include in that niche but that certainly helped us grow o but that certainly helped us grow o but that certainly helped us grow o over the years. over the years. over the years. » Sure. Yeah. Yeah. That's a unique I » Sure. Yeah. Yeah. That's a unique I » Sure. Yeah. Yeah. That's a unique I never really think about a city being never really think about a city being never really think about a city being insured. It makes sense they'd have to insured. It makes sense they'd have to insured. It makes sense they'd have to be. But yeah, that seems like a unique be. But yeah, that seems like a unique be. But yeah, that seems like a unique policy. It it is uh you know the policy. It it is uh you know the policy. It it is uh you know the property is one thing but obviously they property is one thing but obviously they property is one thing but obviously they have a lot of vehicles. They've got a have a lot of vehicles. They've got a have a lot of vehicles. They've got a lot of employees. They've got some lot of employees. They've got some lot of employees. They've got some unique exposures. You know, unique exposures. You know, unique exposures. You know, » right? Law enforcement uh things » right? Law enforcement uh things » right? Law enforcement uh things » and a lot of touch points. I mean the » and a lot of touch points. I mean the » and a lot of touch points. I mean the trash truck. trash truck. trash truck. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » They have vehicles that go in front of » They have vehicles that go in front of » They have vehicles that go in front of every house in town, right? Every week, every house in town, right? Every week, every house in town, right? Every week, » which is interesting. There's not a lot » which is interesting. There's not a lot » which is interesting. There's not a lot of companies that do that. of companies that do that. of companies that do that. » No. » No. » No. » They're in front of every town of a » They're in front of every town of a » They're in front of every town of a Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. » Yeah. That's That's wild. Um, so t so » Yeah. That's That's wild. Um, so t so » Yeah. That's That's wild. Um, so t so talk about that next transition. So that talk about that next transition. So that talk about that next transition. So that was kind of your niche. Um, fast forward was kind of your niche. Um, fast forward was kind of your niche. Um, fast forward cuz I I remember you guys advertising a cuz I I remember you guys advertising a cuz I I remember you guys advertising a lot of personal. I don't really see that lot of personal. I don't really see that lot of personal. I don't really see that as much anymore. So are you guys we're as much anymore. So are you guys we're as much anymore. So are you guys we're still in it. I will say the personal still in it. I will say the personal still in it. I will say the personal lines market has been really lines market has been really lines market has been really challenging. The whole market in general challenging. The whole market in general challenging. The whole market in general since about 2020 has been what's since about 2020 has been what's since about 2020 has been what's referred to as a hard market. referred to as a hard market. referred to as a hard market. and the market the insurance market and the market the insurance market and the market the insurance market cycles just like everything else the cycles just like everything else the cycles just like everything else the real estate market the stock market real estate market the stock market real estate market the stock market historically if you look over a 40-year historically if you look over a 40-year historically if you look over a 40-year period it's usually around 3 to 5 years period it's usually around 3 to 5 years period it's usually around 3 to 5 years that of a hard insurance market which is that of a hard insurance market which is that of a hard insurance market which is increased rates uh less capacity increased rates uh less capacity increased rates uh less capacity carriers don't want new business I mean carriers don't want new business I mean carriers don't want new business I mean they're they're uh they're they're uh they're they're uh uh they restrict their appetite just uh they restrict their appetite just uh they restrict their appetite just because of exposure because of exposure because of exposure » yeah A yes. Um but with I I mentioned » yeah A yes. Um but with I I mentioned » yeah A yes. Um but with I I mentioned increased rates, it gets to a point increased rates, it gets to a point increased rates, it gets to a point where their rates get to a point where their rates get to a point where their rates get to a point where » their total combined loss ratio is » their total combined loss ratio is » their total combined loss ratio is is acceptable and then is acceptable and then is acceptable and then switches back to a soft market where switches back to a soft market where switches back to a soft market where carriers are more aggressive, rates are carriers are more aggressive, rates are carriers are more aggressive, rates are slashed, they go back to trying to gain slashed, they go back to trying to gain slashed, they go back to trying to gain more market share. more market share. more market share. » And and I think we are right now » And and I think we are right now » And and I think we are right now starting to see the beginning of a soft starting to see the beginning of a soft starting to see the beginning of a soft market. But I'm not going to call it a market. But I'm not going to call it a market. But I'm not going to call it a soft market yet because we're only soft market yet because we're only soft market yet because we're only seeing signs in certain sectors. But but seeing signs in certain sectors. But but seeing signs in certain sectors. But but property has been extremely challenging property has been extremely challenging property has been extremely challenging for the last 5 years. And what we're for the last 5 years. And what we're for the last 5 years. And what we're hearing is the reinsurance markets made hearing is the reinsurance markets made hearing is the reinsurance markets made more money than the global more money than the global more money than the global reinsurance markets made more money in reinsurance markets made more money in reinsurance markets made more money in the last in 2024 and probably 2025 the last in 2024 and probably 2025 the last in 2024 and probably 2025 than they were expecting. than they were expecting. than they were expecting. » So that probably has something to do » So that probably has something to do » So that probably has something to do with it. That was a really long way with it. That was a really long way with it. That was a really long way around saying, around saying, around saying, you know, we have access to probably 12 you know, we have access to probably 12 you know, we have access to probably 12 different personal insurance carriers. different personal insurance carriers. different personal insurance carriers. There are several of them that halted There are several of them that halted There are several of them that halted new business in the Witchah area. And so new business in the Witchah area. And so new business in the Witchah area. And so we, um, we, um, we, um, » even the people that were coming to us, » even the people that were coming to us, » even the people that were coming to us, we were having a hard time finding a new we were having a hard time finding a new we were having a hard time finding a new home for them. So, um, home for them. So, um, home for them. So, um, » we're still in it. And I'm and I'm » we're still in it. And I'm and I'm » we're still in it. And I'm and I'm hopeful if the market changes this year, hopeful if the market changes this year, hopeful if the market changes this year, it will start growing again. But it's it will start growing again. But it's it will start growing again. But it's kind of just been, you know, hang on to kind of just been, you know, hang on to kind of just been, you know, hang on to what you have and make sure you're what you have and make sure you're what you have and make sure you're servicing them. You know, if there are servicing them. You know, if there are servicing them. You know, if there are any other options, you know, if if you any other options, you know, if if you any other options, you know, if if you have your home and auto with us and you have your home and auto with us and you have your home and auto with us and you call in and say, "Hey, we just got this call in and say, "Hey, we just got this call in and say, "Hey, we just got this 23% rate increase." I mean, we 23% rate increase." I mean, we 23% rate increase." I mean, we » compare it to the other carriers we have » compare it to the other carriers we have » compare it to the other carriers we have and see if we can just hang on to it. and see if we can just hang on to it. and see if we can just hang on to it. Right. Right. Right. » So, uh, so explain that to me. Why I I » So, uh, so explain that to me. Why I I » So, uh, so explain that to me. Why I I it feels like a big game, right? Like it feels like a big game, right? Like it feels like a big game, right? Like this whole insurance thing. you go this whole insurance thing. you go this whole insurance thing. you go everybody's like hey did your everybody's like hey did your everybody's like hey did your policy spike come meet with us policy spike come meet with us policy spike come meet with us right » and for the last five years the answer » and for the last five years the answer » and for the last five years the answer is yes almost every time yeah is yes almost every time yeah is yes almost every time yeah everybody's going up um but like what everybody's going up um but like what everybody's going up um but like what does cause that why can you go down what does cause that why can you go down what does cause that why can you go down the street to somebody and all of a the street to somebody and all of a the street to somebody and all of a sudden they have like a similar home sudden they have like a similar home sudden they have like a similar home auto they cut it down because I mean I auto they cut it down because I mean I auto they cut it down because I mean I hear the stories all the time like and hear the stories all the time like and hear the stories all the time like and every year it changes when people come every year it changes when people come every year it changes when people come up to renewals I'll be at some social up to renewals I'll be at some social up to renewals I'll be at some social thing and they'll be like oh I just went thing and they'll be like oh I just went thing and they'll be like oh I just went over there and left this and I saved over there and left this and I saved over there and left this and I saved X. And is it X. And is it X. And is it » so insurance carriers change their rates » so insurance carriers change their rates » so insurance carriers change their rates every year. Some of them more than once every year. Some of them more than once every year. Some of them more than once in in a 12-month period. And so and not in in a 12-month period. And so and not in in a 12-month period. And so and not all at the same time either. So, you all at the same time either. So, you all at the same time either. So, you know, know, know, » nationwide might change their rates in » nationwide might change their rates in » nationwide might change their rates in February and travelers might change February and travelers might change February and travelers might change theirs in April. And so it's it's a theirs in April. And so it's it's a theirs in April. And so it's it's a moving target. moving target. moving target. The carriers are they don't want to be The carriers are they don't want to be The carriers are they don't want to be the lowest price and they don't want the lowest price and they don't want the lowest price and they don't want to be the highest price. So they're to be the highest price. So they're to be the highest price. So they're always trying to be somewhere in the always trying to be somewhere in the always trying to be somewhere in the middle. And the reality is middle. And the reality is middle. And the reality is I would say most of the time they're all I would say most of the time they're all I would say most of the time they're all within about 10%. Every once in a while within about 10%. Every once in a while within about 10%. Every once in a while you'll find an outlier where somebody's you'll find an outlier where somebody's you'll find an outlier where somebody's 20 25% lower. 20 25% lower. 20 25% lower. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » They're typically not that low for » They're typically not that low for » They're typically not that low for too long. Um they'll realize they too long. Um they'll realize they too long. Um they'll realize they brought on a bunch of business on the brought on a bunch of business on the brought on a bunch of business on the books for too little rate and they'll books for too little rate and they'll books for too little rate and they'll make a big adjustment. So, I mean, it's make a big adjustment. So, I mean, it's make a big adjustment. So, I mean, it's it's a moving target is really I mean, it's a moving target is really I mean, it's a moving target is really I mean, if you picked up the phone every 30 or if you picked up the phone every 30 or if you picked up the phone every 30 or 60 days and called somebody, you could 60 days and called somebody, you could 60 days and called somebody, you could probably find someone that would be able probably find someone that would be able probably find someone that would be able to give you a lower rate than what to give you a lower rate than what to give you a lower rate than what you've currently got. you've currently got. you've currently got. » Yeah. So, if they're staggering or not » Yeah. So, if they're staggering or not » Yeah. So, if they're staggering or not staggering intentionally, but if their staggering intentionally, but if their staggering intentionally, but if their prices are uh price increases are prices are uh price increases are prices are uh price increases are staggered throughout the year, I'm sure staggered throughout the year, I'm sure staggered throughout the year, I'm sure within those gaps, a lot of that within those gaps, a lot of that within those gaps, a lot of that happens, right? Absolutely. So if happens, right? Absolutely. So if happens, right? Absolutely. So if everyone, you know, majority of their everyone, you know, majority of their everyone, you know, majority of their competition » in a 12 month period, you know, if we're » in a 12 month period, you know, if we're » in a 12 month period, you know, if we're dealing with 10 or 12 different carriers dealing with 10 or 12 different carriers dealing with 10 or 12 different carriers that we work with, I mean, that we work with, I mean, that we work with, I mean, that means » a lot of things that could have changed » a lot of things that could have changed » a lot of things that could have changed since, since, since, » you know, the last time we placed your » you know, the last time we placed your » you know, the last time we placed your policy. And so, policy. And so, policy. And so, » yeah. » yeah. » yeah. » Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, that's » Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, that's » Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, that's always just in my head. I'm like, what always just in my head. I'm like, what always just in my head. I'm like, what is going on? And I know it's like all on is going on? And I know it's like all on is going on? And I know it's like all on the carrier side. It's not on the broker the carrier side. It's not on the broker the carrier side. It's not on the broker side. side. side. » And it also has a little bit to do with » And it also has a little bit to do with » And it also has a little bit to do with how that particular carrier has how that particular carrier has how that particular carrier has performed. So if you know if a certain performed. So if you know if a certain performed. So if you know if a certain homeowners carrier really had a high homeowners carrier really had a high homeowners carrier really had a high loss ratio the prior year they might say loss ratio the prior year they might say loss ratio the prior year they might say hey effective immediately we got to hey effective immediately we got to hey effective immediately we got to start doing or in the next 30 days we start doing or in the next 30 days we start doing or in the next 30 days we got to start applying 25% rate increases got to start applying 25% rate increases got to start applying 25% rate increases or whatever it is. Now conversely if if or whatever it is. Now conversely if if or whatever it is. Now conversely if if a carrier had a really good year the a carrier had a really good year the a carrier had a really good year the prior year they're going to say hey prior year they're going to say hey prior year they're going to say hey we're going to keep our foot on the gas we're going to keep our foot on the gas we're going to keep our foot on the gas and try to get more market share. we're and try to get more market share. we're and try to get more market share. we're not going to increase rates or not going to increase rates or not going to increase rates or » so. So, how does uh mother nature affect » so. So, how does uh mother nature affect » so. So, how does uh mother nature affect this whole thing uh based on coverage this whole thing uh based on coverage this whole thing uh based on coverage areas? So, in in my mind, I'm thinking areas? So, in in my mind, I'm thinking areas? So, in in my mind, I'm thinking carrier A has a lot of exposure in carrier A has a lot of exposure in carrier A has a lot of exposure in Oklahoma, tornadoes rip through, lots of Oklahoma, tornadoes rip through, lots of Oklahoma, tornadoes rip through, lots of flooding, whatever. And but carrier B flooding, whatever. And but carrier B flooding, whatever. And but carrier B doesn't have a lot of exposure there. doesn't have a lot of exposure there. doesn't have a lot of exposure there. Does carrier B not make much of an Does carrier B not make much of an Does carrier B not make much of an increase? And then carrier A's prices go increase? And then carrier A's prices go increase? And then carrier A's prices go up and then now B sweeps in and takes up and then now B sweeps in and takes up and then now B sweeps in and takes market share. Was that was probably market share. Was that was probably market share. Was that was probably a complicated analogy. a complicated analogy. a complicated analogy. » Yes and no. » Yes and no. » Yes and no. So I mentioned the consolidation on the So I mentioned the consolidation on the So I mentioned the consolidation on the agency side. There's also some a lot of agency side. There's also some a lot of agency side. There's also some a lot of consolidation on the carrier side. There consolidation on the carrier side. There consolidation on the carrier side. There are less regional carriers today than are less regional carriers today than are less regional carriers today than there were 10 20 years ago. Most of them there were 10 20 years ago. Most of them there were 10 20 years ago. Most of them are national carriers now. And so, you are national carriers now. And so, you are national carriers now. And so, you know, it's not there are very few know, it's not there are very few know, it's not there are very few carriers. I can think of a couple off carriers. I can think of a couple off carriers. I can think of a couple off the top of my head that only have the top of my head that only have the top of my head that only have exposure in Kansas, right? I mean, exposure in Kansas, right? I mean, exposure in Kansas, right? I mean, » there wasn't any to be honest. » there wasn't any to be honest. » there wasn't any to be honest. » Yeah. There um there's a couple that I » Yeah. There um there's a couple that I » Yeah. There um there's a couple that I can think of. can think of. can think of. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » But, you know, if you look at Travelers » But, you know, if you look at Travelers » But, you know, if you look at Travelers or Liberty Mutual or or u Metife, you or Liberty Mutual or or u Metife, you or Liberty Mutual or or u Metife, you know, they have know, they have know, they have exposure all across the country. And so, exposure all across the country. And so, exposure all across the country. And so, so when there are hurricanes, so when there are hurricanes, so when there are hurricanes, unfortunately, now that does trickle unfortunately, now that does trickle unfortunately, now that does trickle down to to those that those of us that down to to those that those of us that down to to those that those of us that don't have hurricanes. don't have hurricanes. don't have hurricanes. Now, I will tell you, Kansas is still a Now, I will tell you, Kansas is still a Now, I will tell you, Kansas is still a pretty tough state just because we may pretty tough state just because we may pretty tough state just because we may not have hurricanes, but the wind not have hurricanes, but the wind not have hurricanes, but the wind and hail is pretty significant and hail is pretty significant and hail is pretty significant here. We we feel like the tornadoes have here. We we feel like the tornadoes have here. We we feel like the tornadoes have shifted a little bit more to the shifted a little bit more to the shifted a little bit more to the southeast. Um southeast. Um southeast. Um but yeah um but yeah um but yeah um um but the other the other um but the other the other um but the other the other interesting part of that is interesting part of that is interesting part of that is there are only a handful and I don't there are only a handful and I don't there are only a handful and I don't know the number we'll call it half a know the number we'll call it half a know the number we'll call it half a dozen of reinsurance carriers left in dozen of reinsurance carriers left in dozen of reinsurance carriers left in the world as well and they're companies the world as well and they're companies the world as well and they're companies you've never heard of um well Swiss re you've never heard of um well Swiss re you've never heard of um well Swiss re you might have heard of but even the you might have heard of but even the you might have heard of but even the biggest carriers in the country we we'll biggest carriers in the country we we'll biggest carriers in the country we we'll use travelers again as an example use travelers again as an example use travelers again as an example they're only retaining or self-insuring they're only retaining or self-insuring they're only retaining or self-insuring ing a very small percent of their risk. ing a very small percent of their risk. ing a very small percent of their risk. And so these again, these aren't going And so these again, these aren't going And so these again, these aren't going to be accurate numbers, but let's just to be accurate numbers, but let's just to be accurate numbers, but let's just say actually I'm going to use a regional say actually I'm going to use a regional say actually I'm going to use a regional carrier here in in Kansas. It used to be carrier here in in Kansas. It used to be carrier here in in Kansas. It used to be they had to have a $2 million event they had to have a $2 million event they had to have a $2 million event before their reinsurance was triggered. before their reinsurance was triggered. before their reinsurance was triggered. So really the most the car So really the most the car So really the most the car » So travelers, sorry I'm going to pause » So travelers, sorry I'm going to pause » So travelers, sorry I'm going to pause you there. So travelers is paying for a you there. So travelers is paying for a you there. So travelers is paying for a policy on their policies, policy on their policies, policy on their policies, » correct? And they're only self all of » correct? And they're only self all of » correct? And they're only self all of them are doing it. They're only them are doing it. They're only them are doing it. They're only selfinsured up to 2 million for selfinsured up to 2 million for selfinsured up to 2 million for themselves. So up to 2 million they themselves. So up to 2 million they themselves. So up to 2 million they cover » Yep. » Yep. » Yep. » out of their bucket. And then Okay. » out of their bucket. And then Okay. » out of their bucket. And then Okay. » Who are those guys? » Who are those guys? » Who are those guys? » Yes. Uh » Yes. Uh » Yes. Uh » those are some big » those are some big » those are some big » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » They're all over. Um » They're all over. Um » They're all over. Um » Oh, » Oh, » Oh, » yeah. » yeah. » yeah. There there is a regional carrier here There there is a regional carrier here There there is a regional carrier here in Kansas that we talked to their CEO in Kansas that we talked to their CEO in Kansas that we talked to their CEO and I'm not I probably not shouldn't use and I'm not I probably not shouldn't use and I'm not I probably not shouldn't use their name because I don't know if this their name because I don't know if this their name because I don't know if this is something he'd want us to tell but he is something he'd want us to tell but he is something he'd want us to tell but he he told us it was two years ago that the he told us it was two years ago that the he told us it was two years ago that the reinsurance rates really started reinsurance rates really started reinsurance rates really started increasing and so what that did he said increasing and so what that did he said increasing and so what that did he said you know we're a company that used to you know we're a company that used to you know we're a company that used to retain $2 million and this is a real $2 million and this is a real $2 million and this is a real number from a more regional local type number from a more regional local type number from a more regional local type company. So in one event you know we company. So in one event you know we company. So in one event you know we paid out everything under 2 million. And paid out everything under 2 million. And paid out everything under 2 million. And as soon as it hit the 2 million, our as soon as it hit the 2 million, our as soon as it hit the 2 million, our reinsurance, the carriers reinsurance, the carriers reinsurance, the carriers reinsurance policy kicked in. policy kicked in. policy kicked in. What happened was in early, I think it What happened was in early, I think it What happened was in early, I think it was 2023, was 2023, was 2023, the reinsurance carriers came in and the reinsurance carriers came in and the reinsurance carriers came in and said, "Hey, we're giving you 25% premium said, "Hey, we're giving you 25% premium said, "Hey, we're giving you 25% premium increase on your policy." And oh, by the increase on your policy." And oh, by the increase on your policy." And oh, by the way, you used to retain the first 2 way, you used to retain the first 2 way, you used to retain the first 2 million, now you're retaining the first million, now you're retaining the first million, now you're retaining the first 5 million. So what did they just do 5 million. So what did they just do 5 million. So what did they just do there? They increased their premiums and there? They increased their premiums and there? They increased their premiums and they increased the deductibles. That they increased the deductibles. That they increased the deductibles. That sound familiar? So it was a trickle down sound familiar? So it was a trickle down sound familiar? So it was a trickle down effect. effect. effect. » Interesting. » Interesting. » Interesting. » When the carriers got hit with that, » When the carriers got hit with that, » When the carriers got hit with that, that's what you started seeing in the that's what you started seeing in the that's what you started seeing in the personal lines marketplace at the personal lines marketplace at the personal lines marketplace at the carrier level. And now the consumer, carrier level. And now the consumer, carrier level. And now the consumer, well, our premiums went up 25% and our well, our premiums went up 25% and our well, our premiums went up 25% and our wind hail deductible went from, you wind hail deductible went from, you wind hail deductible went from, you know, $1,000 to $5,000. And so, um, know, $1,000 to $5,000. And so, um, know, $1,000 to $5,000. And so, um, yeah, it's it's a trickle down effect yeah, it's it's a trickle down effect yeah, it's it's a trickle down effect from the action that the reinsurance from the action that the reinsurance from the action that the reinsurance markets took. But markets took. But markets took. But » so, let's talk about the reinsurance » so, let's talk about the reinsurance » so, let's talk about the reinsurance markets. You got me intrigued now. Who markets. You got me intrigued now. Who markets. You got me intrigued now. Who are these people that are not local? I I are these people that are not local? I I are these people that are not local? I I couldn't even name, you know, Swiss Re couldn't even name, you know, Swiss Re couldn't even name, you know, Swiss Re is one that we work with. I I believe is one that we work with. I I believe is one that we work with. I I believe » um » um » um » gosh, I don't know. I I I know there's » gosh, I don't know. I I I know there's » gosh, I don't know. I I I know there's only five or six left. I mean, I'm I'm only five or six left. I mean, I'm I'm only five or six left. I mean, I'm I'm not a reinsurance expert, but not a reinsurance expert, but not a reinsurance expert, but » Yeah, but they » Yeah, but they » Yeah, but they » But all of our carriers talked about, » But all of our carriers talked about, » But all of our carriers talked about, hey, the reason we're giving these hey, the reason we're giving these hey, the reason we're giving these increases is because we got these increases is because we got these increases is because we got these increases from our reinsurance markets. increases from our reinsurance markets. increases from our reinsurance markets. » What a wow. And as I said, they what » What a wow. And as I said, they what » What a wow. And as I said, they what we're hearing is the reinsurance market we're hearing is the reinsurance market we're hearing is the reinsurance market made markets made more in 2024 than they made markets made more in 2024 than they made markets made more in 2024 than they were expecting. And and we're the were expecting. And and we're the were expecting. And and we're the hunch is a lot of carriers are starting hunch is a lot of carriers are starting hunch is a lot of carriers are starting to release their total combined ratios to release their total combined ratios to release their total combined ratios for 2025. And they're in the low to for 2025. And they're in the low to for 2025. And they're in the low to mid90s. So, you know, anytime you're in mid90s. So, you know, anytime you're in mid90s. So, you know, anytime you're in the low to mid 90s, you're you're making the low to mid 90s, you're you're making the low to mid 90s, you're you're making money. low to mid low to mid90s% money. low to mid low to mid90s% money. low to mid low to mid90s% » okay » okay » okay » of of your » of of your » of of your » uh uh » uh uh » uh uh » written premium so their loss ratio is » written premium so their loss ratio is » written premium so their loss ratio is basically you know if their loss ratio basically you know if their loss ratio basically you know if their loss ratio is 95% that means they made 5% total is 95% that means they made 5% total is 95% that means they made 5% total combined includes all their expense load combined includes all their expense load combined includes all their expense load and everything like that and everything like that and everything like that » for a while before this hard market the » for a while before this hard market the » for a while before this hard market the stock market was doing very well and stock market was doing very well and stock market was doing very well and insurance companies had a ton invested insurance companies had a ton invested insurance companies had a ton invested and so there were there was a period and so there were there was a period and so there were there was a period where carriers were running over a 100% where carriers were running over a 100% where carriers were running over a 100% loss ratio, but because they were making loss ratio, but because they were making loss ratio, but because they were making so much in investment income, so much in investment income, so much in investment income, » it was masking the problem. And what » it was masking the problem. And what » it was masking the problem. And what happened is the market um took a dive happened is the market um took a dive happened is the market um took a dive and all the carriers at one time and all the carriers at one time and all the carriers at one time realized we should have been charging realized we should have been charging realized we should have been charging more premium for a lot of this stuff and more premium for a lot of this stuff and more premium for a lot of this stuff and uh that's that's when the market changed uh that's that's when the market changed uh that's that's when the market changed to hard market. to hard market. to hard market. » How do they calculate all this? I mean » How do they calculate all this? I mean » How do they calculate all this? I mean based on do they go prior like averages based on do they go prior like averages based on do they go prior like averages of prior five years? Do they just look of prior five years? Do they just look of prior five years? Do they just look at the last year and then project? I I'm at the last year and then project? I I'm at the last year and then project? I I'm curious how they consider curious how they consider curious how they consider » I think it's it's a combination of both. » I think it's it's a combination of both. » I think it's it's a combination of both. I I think our industry is very reactive. I I think our industry is very reactive. I I think our industry is very reactive. And so And so And so you know if by the time you realize you know if by the time you realize you know if by the time you realize you've lost money over the last 12 you've lost money over the last 12 you've lost money over the last 12 months, it's too late. And so then months, it's too late. And so then months, it's too late. And so then you're trying to pick rates again that you're trying to pick rates again that you're trying to pick rates again that you think are going to sustain you think are going to sustain you think are going to sustain you through this year, but then a lot of through this year, but then a lot of through this year, but then a lot of things happen. You could get hit with a things happen. You could get hit with a things happen. You could get hit with a billion dollar storm and all of a sudden billion dollar storm and all of a sudden billion dollar storm and all of a sudden the rates you filed in February aren't the rates you filed in February aren't the rates you filed in February aren't going to be enough and or you have a going to be enough and or you have a going to be enough and or you have a better year and then you have to take better year and then you have to take better year and then you have to take your foot off the rate pedal a little your foot off the rate pedal a little your foot off the rate pedal a little bit. But it it's very reactive industry bit. But it it's very reactive industry bit. But it it's very reactive industry and it's you know and it's you know and it's you know » I mean I don't want to say it's a guess. » I mean I don't want to say it's a guess. » I mean I don't want to say it's a guess. I mean, it's an actuarial science at it I mean, it's an actuarial science at it I mean, it's an actuarial science at it at its core, but you don't know how at its core, but you don't know how at its core, but you don't know how many storms are going to come. many storms are going to come. many storms are going to come. » And the other thing that's been driving » And the other thing that's been driving » And the other thing that's been driving these the costs of the storms, you know, these the costs of the storms, you know, these the costs of the storms, you know, they used to talk about uh the number of they used to talk about uh the number of they used to talk about uh the number of billion dollar events that, you know, it billion dollar events that, you know, it billion dollar events that, you know, it was so rare for those to happen. I mean, was so rare for those to happen. I mean, was so rare for those to happen. I mean, those are happening two dozen times a those are happening two dozen times a those are happening two dozen times a year now. And and that's year now. And and that's year now. And and that's » and materials have gone up, labor's gone » and materials have gone up, labor's gone » and materials have gone up, labor's gone up, everything. up, everything. up, everything. » That that's where I was going is part » That that's where I was going is part » That that's where I was going is part No, no, no. Part part of the reason is No, no, no. Part part of the reason is No, no, no. Part part of the reason is it it costs so much more to put things it it costs so much more to put things it it costs so much more to put things back together now after a after a total back together now after a after a total back together now after a after a total loss. I mean that just loss. I mean that just loss. I mean that just » that just drives » that just drives » that just drives the insurance carrier's loss ratio which the insurance carrier's loss ratio which the insurance carrier's loss ratio which is going to in turn have them have to is going to in turn have them have to is going to in turn have them have to increase rates. increase rates. increase rates. » So yeah inflation » So yeah inflation » So yeah inflation wow inflation's effect on insurance is wow inflation's effect on insurance is wow inflation's effect on insurance is pretty interesting. I never really pretty interesting. I never really pretty interesting. I never really thought about it that down to that thought about it that down to that thought about it that down to that detail of they also have to consider detail of they also have to consider detail of they also have to consider that uh my local service company's rates that uh my local service company's rates that uh my local service company's rates are up 30% are up 30% are up 30% » and that's on buildings but just think » and that's on buildings but just think » and that's on buildings but just think about even about even about even » uh auto insurance as well. I mean there » uh auto insurance as well. I mean there » uh auto insurance as well. I mean there on newer vehicles there's no such thing on newer vehicles there's no such thing on newer vehicles there's no such thing as a minor uh you know accident anymore. as a minor uh you know accident anymore. as a minor uh you know accident anymore. I mean when you think about all the I mean when you think about all the I mean when you think about all the cameras and sensors and the bumper you cameras and sensors and the bumper you cameras and sensors and the bumper you know you used to be able to replace a know you used to be able to replace a know you used to be able to replace a bumper for 600 bucks. Now if you crack bumper for 600 bucks. Now if you crack bumper for 600 bucks. Now if you crack one of those bumpers it's one of those bumpers it's one of those bumpers it's » four grand or whatever the number is. » four grand or whatever the number is. » four grand or whatever the number is. And so it just it's it's more expensive And so it just it's it's more expensive And so it just it's it's more expensive to to fix things these days for a to to fix things these days for a to to fix things these days for a lot for a variety of reasons. Advanced lot for a variety of reasons. Advanced lot for a variety of reasons. Advanced technology, inflation like you technology, inflation like you technology, inflation like you mentioned, increased cost of materials mentioned, increased cost of materials mentioned, increased cost of materials and labor. So yeah, uh these reinsure and labor. So yeah, uh these reinsure and labor. So yeah, uh these reinsure why is there such a degree of why is there such a degree of why is there such a degree of separation from these pretty large separation from these pretty large separation from these pretty large carriers to a reinsurer? carriers to a reinsurer? carriers to a reinsurer? Um is it just always been that way? I'm Um is it just always been that way? I'm Um is it just always been that way? I'm assuming and they the assuming and they the assuming and they the » the risk level the capital I wonder what » the risk level the capital I wonder what » the risk level the capital I wonder what the regulation is. the regulation is. the regulation is. » I could not tell you when if if uh » I could not tell you when if if uh » I could not tell you when if if uh » if the reinsurance market » if the reinsurance market » if the reinsurance market » has been this way for it's been this way » has been this way for it's been this way » has been this way for it's been this way for as long as I've been learning about for as long as I've been learning about for as long as I've been learning about it. it. it. » I I I mentioned that this market » I I I mentioned that this market » I I I mentioned that this market I mean honestly in our industry there's I mean honestly in our industry there's I mean honestly in our industry there's a lot of I mean I am one of the younger a lot of I mean I am one of the younger a lot of I mean I am one of the younger guys in our industry believe it or not. guys in our industry believe it or not. guys in our industry believe it or not. Um, I think they said the average age of Um, I think they said the average age of Um, I think they said the average age of the agency owner in our industry now is the agency owner in our industry now is the agency owner in our industry now is like 67. And so, um, like 67. And so, um, like 67. And so, um, » there's a lot of opportunity coming up. » there's a lot of opportunity coming up. » there's a lot of opportunity coming up. I mean, I mean, I mean, » my next question. » my next question. » my next question. » Yeah. Uh, what was your next question? » Yeah. Uh, what was your next question? » Yeah. Uh, what was your next question? » Acquisitions. » Acquisitions. » Acquisitions. » Consolidation is a big deal. And you've » Consolidation is a big deal. And you've » Consolidation is a big deal. And you've went from 25 to 75 employees uh, with went from 25 to 75 employees uh, with went from 25 to 75 employees uh, with » pursuing and purchasing multiple other » pursuing and purchasing multiple other » pursuing and purchasing multiple other agencies. So, how much of your growth agencies. So, how much of your growth agencies. So, how much of your growth was uh, strategic acquisitions versus was uh, strategic acquisitions versus was uh, strategic acquisitions versus just within just within just within I don't know that I have the exact I don't know that I have the exact I don't know that I have the exact breakdown. So, we just completed our breakdown. So, we just completed our breakdown. So, we just completed our sixth acquisition in just over a little sixth acquisition in just over a little sixth acquisition in just over a little over eight years. Um, over eight years. Um, over eight years. Um, » so you got a two-year break every other » so you got a two-year break every other » so you got a two-year break every other » Well, not sometimes. We did two in one » Well, not sometimes. We did two in one » Well, not sometimes. We did two in one year. Um, I think the last two we did year. Um, I think the last two we did year. Um, I think the last two we did were 18 months apart. were 18 months apart. were 18 months apart. What my my belief is my my belief is my my belief is it's it's happening at such a a fast it's it's happening at such a a fast it's it's happening at such a a fast pace. I felt like in order for us to pace. I felt like in order for us to pace. I felt like in order for us to stay relevant, we were going to either stay relevant, we were going to either stay relevant, we were going to either have to buy or get bought. And so, um, have to buy or get bought. And so, um, have to buy or get bought. And so, um, we we did a few deals. They they seemed we we did a few deals. They they seemed we we did a few deals. They they seemed to work well, probably better than we to work well, probably better than we to work well, probably better than we expected them to. And and we are we expected them to. And and we are we expected them to. And and we are we we've got a model now that I think we've got a model now that I think we've got a model now that I think people in the industry are starting to people in the industry are starting to people in the industry are starting to recognize. We have a lot of people come recognize. We have a lot of people come recognize. We have a lot of people come to us and say, "Hey, are you to us and say, "Hey, are you to us and say, "Hey, are you interested?" And and that is something I interested?" And and that is something I interested?" And and that is something I would have never thought would have been would have never thought would have been would have never thought would have been the case. the case. the case. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. Because they don't necessarily » Yeah. Because they don't necessarily » Yeah. Because they don't necessarily We're still, you know, locally owned and We're still, you know, locally owned and We're still, you know, locally owned and privately owned. They don't necessarily privately owned. They don't necessarily privately owned. They don't necessarily want to sell to a private equity group. want to sell to a private equity group. want to sell to a private equity group. you know, these are local agencies and you know, these are local agencies and you know, these are local agencies and local communities that, you know, trying local communities that, you know, trying local communities that, you know, trying to explain to all your clients and to explain to all your clients and to explain to all your clients and friends that you sold to a private friends that you sold to a private friends that you sold to a private equity group out of, you know, New York equity group out of, you know, New York equity group out of, you know, New York is is that's not typically been the is is that's not typically been the is is that's not typically been the way independent agencies operate. And so way independent agencies operate. And so way independent agencies operate. And so when they can find locallyowned agencies when they can find locallyowned agencies when they can find locallyowned agencies with similar values, kind of like us, with similar values, kind of like us, with similar values, kind of like us, they I mean, a lot of times they'll probably I mean, a lot of times they'll probably I mean, a lot of times they'll probably sell to us for a little bit of a I don't sell to us for a little bit of a I don't sell to us for a little bit of a I don't want to say a discount, but we certainly want to say a discount, but we certainly want to say a discount, but we certainly can't pay as much as the private equity can't pay as much as the private equity can't pay as much as the private equity groups are. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I can't groups are. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I can't groups are. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I can't imagine I man the during co there was so imagine I man the during co there was so imagine I man the during co there was so much rolling up of every industry. It much rolling up of every industry. It much rolling up of every industry. It was nuts. I mean, you know, good to be was nuts. I mean, you know, good to be was nuts. I mean, you know, good to be clean, we get a call every other clean, we get a call every other clean, we get a call every other week of a legit week of a legit week of a legit » um private equity group rolling up » um private equity group rolling up » um private equity group rolling up cleaning companies like left and right. cleaning companies like left and right. cleaning companies like left and right. And that's all calmed down a lot right And that's all calmed down a lot right And that's all calmed down a lot right now. I feel like in that industry now. I feel like in that industry now. I feel like in that industry specifically » in the insurance space, 2025 was a lower » in the insurance space, 2025 was a lower » in the insurance space, 2025 was a lower year than the prior three or four. year than the prior three or four. year than the prior three or four. But the prior three or four, I mean, you But the prior three or four, I mean, you But the prior three or four, I mean, you were seeing record levels of of were seeing record levels of of were seeing record levels of of transactions and I probably get transactions and I probably get transactions and I probably get calls every week. Um, calls every week. Um, calls every week. Um, » but again, they're » but again, they're » but again, they're » Yeah. Once the word's out that you're » Yeah. Once the word's out that you're » Yeah. Once the word's out that you're buying, you know, that's that in itself buying, you know, that's that in itself buying, you know, that's that in itself is pretty good advertisement. I mean, is pretty good advertisement. I mean, is pretty good advertisement. I mean, that's covered, I'm sure. that's covered, I'm sure. that's covered, I'm sure. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » The the loss of that has always been » The the loss of that has always been » The the loss of that has always been interesting to me. when you buy out a interesting to me. when you buy out a interesting to me. when you buy out a company and right it's a it's another company and right it's a it's another company and right it's a it's another » Tom Murray situation but smaller maybe » Tom Murray situation but smaller maybe » Tom Murray situation but smaller maybe right but they have a relationship do right but they have a relationship do right but they have a relationship do you have to keep these owners on for a you have to keep these owners on for a you have to keep these owners on for a certain amount of time I could just see certain amount of time I could just see certain amount of time I could just see do you expect you're going to lose 30% do you expect you're going to lose 30% do you expect you're going to lose 30% just because of change of ownership just because of change of ownership just because of change of ownership » you expect to lose some I don't think » you expect to lose some I don't think » you expect to lose some I don't think we've ever lost 30% we've ever lost 30% we've ever lost 30% um um um yes the owners typically agree to stay yes the owners typically agree to stay yes the owners typically agree to stay on I would say three years is average on I would say three years is average on I would say three years is average we've you know we've We've had one where we've you know we've We've had one where we've you know we've We've had one where the owner wanted to stay for five. the owner wanted to stay for five. the owner wanted to stay for five. We had one where the owner said three We had one where the owner said three We had one where the owner said three and after 12 months he said, "I've had and after 12 months he said, "I've had and after 12 months he said, "I've had all the fun I can stand." And and you all the fun I can stand." And and you all the fun I can stand." And and you got to realize the people we're buying got to realize the people we're buying got to realize the people we're buying have been running their agencies their have been running their agencies their have been running their agencies their way for 20 30 years. And so when we come way for 20 30 years. And so when we come way for 20 30 years. And so when we come in, if we change anything, which in, if we change anything, which in, if we change anything, which inevitably we're we're going to do, inevitably we're we're going to do, inevitably we're we're going to do, » um they don't like it. They don't like » um they don't like it. They don't like » um they don't like it. They don't like not being in control anymore. They not being in control anymore. They not being in control anymore. They don't like not being in control of the don't like not being in control of the don't like not being in control of the checkbook anymore. And so um you know checkbook anymore. And so um you know checkbook anymore. And so um you know we've been fortunate where most of our we've been fortunate where most of our we've been fortunate where most of our deals well actually all of them have deals well actually all of them have deals well actually all of them have ended amicably. It's just some of have ended amicably. It's just some of have ended amicably. It's just some of them have been in 12 months some of them have been in 12 months some of them have been in 12 months some of them have been 5 years. Um have been 5 years. Um have been 5 years. Um but going back to growth we we we but going back to growth we we we but going back to growth we we we also realize I mean I I mentioned that also realize I mean I I mentioned that also realize I mean I I mentioned that we have to to buy or get bought but we we have to to buy or get bought but we we have to to buy or get bought but we also realize we can't rely on also realize we can't rely on also realize we can't rely on acquisitions to to grow. And so we do acquisitions to to grow. And so we do acquisitions to to grow. And so we do focus a bunch on our sales culture and focus a bunch on our sales culture and focus a bunch on our sales culture and organic growth is very important. organic growth is very important. organic growth is very important. Um we have done our best. We we we are Um we have done our best. We we we are Um we have done our best. We we we are hiring producers as fast as we can find hiring producers as fast as we can find hiring producers as fast as we can find good ones or brokers, salespeople, good ones or brokers, salespeople, good ones or brokers, salespeople, whatever you want to call them. whatever you want to call them. whatever you want to call them. » We've got a plan to add another two or » We've got a plan to add another two or » We've got a plan to add another two or three a year for the next few years. three a year for the next few years. three a year for the next few years. » Organic growth is important and when we » Organic growth is important and when we » Organic growth is important and when we go to all these best practices go to all these best practices go to all these best practices conferences, they tell us, I mean, conferences, they tell us, I mean, conferences, they tell us, I mean, that's really the metric that's really the metric that's really the metric that people are looking at. And so we have people are looking at. And so we have people are looking at. And so we have been a best practices agency. Uh there's been a best practices agency. Uh there's been a best practices agency. Uh there's a there's a consulting firm called a there's a consulting firm called a there's a consulting firm called Reagan and all they do is uh evaluate uh Reagan and all they do is uh evaluate uh Reagan and all they do is uh evaluate uh independent insurance agencies. And independent insurance agencies. And independent insurance agencies. And there's 40,000 independent insurance there's 40,000 independent insurance there's 40,000 independent insurance agencies in in the United States. agencies in in the United States. agencies in in the United States. » In this survey, I want to say somewhere » In this survey, I want to say somewhere » In this survey, I want to say somewhere between 2 and 3,000 actually submit all between 2 and 3,000 actually submit all between 2 and 3,000 actually submit all the data. It's a lot of information. It the data. It's a lot of information. It the data. It's a lot of information. It takes a long time. takes a long time. takes a long time. » How many insurance agencies is that per » How many insurance agencies is that per » How many insurance agencies is that per state, Tyler? state, Tyler? state, Tyler? » Quick, go. That's a lot. That's a lot. » So, but only two or three thousand are » So, but only two or three thousand are » So, but only two or three thousand are filing what? filing what? filing what? » To to become to submit an application to » To to become to submit an application to » To to become to submit an application to be to be named a best practices agency. be to be named a best practices agency. be to be named a best practices agency. And um And um And um » and who enforces and regata against all the peers and then the top against all the peers and then the top performers are ultimately named the performers are ultimately named the performers are ultimately named the best practices agency. Last year there best practices agency. Last year there best practices agency. Last year there were 188 in the country and I'm proud to were 188 in the country and I'm proud to were 188 in the country and I'm proud to say that we were one of them. Again, say that we were one of them. Again, say that we were one of them. Again, that's the third time that's the third time that's the third time » that we've been named a best practices » that we've been named a best practices » that we've been named a best practices agency. So, agency. So, agency. So, » again, and they're the ones telling us » again, and they're the ones telling us » again, and they're the ones telling us that organic growth is important. So, that organic growth is important. So, that organic growth is important. So, we're still meeting there's there's we're still meeting there's there's we're still meeting there's there's criteria. One's called sales velocity, criteria. One's called sales velocity, criteria. One's called sales velocity, which is pretty important. We're still which is pretty important. We're still which is pretty important. We're still growing organically, too. We're not just growing organically, too. We're not just growing organically, too. We're not just buying our way. Uh we're not just buying our way. Uh we're not just buying our way. Uh we're not just buying our growth. We we we recognized we have our growth. We we we recognized we have our growth. We we we recognized we have to do both. Uh grow organically and to do both. Uh grow organically and to do both. Uh grow organically and acquire in order to hit the targets acquire in order to hit the targets acquire in order to hit the targets we've got over the next 5 10 years. And we've got over the next 5 10 years. And we've got over the next 5 10 years. And if you're going to sell, a big piece if you're going to sell, a big piece if you're going to sell, a big piece that a lot of us miss as business owners that a lot of us miss as business owners that a lot of us miss as business owners is you have to have a lead funnel system is you have to have a lead funnel system is you have to have a lead funnel system built out to say, "Hey, if you buy this built out to say, "Hey, if you buy this built out to say, "Hey, if you buy this business, you'll continue growing." And business, you'll continue growing." And business, you'll continue growing." And this is how it's happening. And we can this is how it's happening. And we can this is how it's happening. And we can prove that organically we're getting new prove that organically we're getting new prove that organically we're getting new customers in uh without just buying, you customers in uh without just buying, you customers in uh without just buying, you know, if if all you do is buy, I'm sure, know, if if all you do is buy, I'm sure, know, if if all you do is buy, I'm sure, then you're not as attractive on then you're not as attractive on then you're not as attractive on the growth thing unless they're also just growth thing unless they're also just growth thing unless they're also just buying for growth. buying for growth. buying for growth. » I would imagine that's the case. I I can » I would imagine that's the case. I I can » I would imagine that's the case. I I can honestly say I have never taken one of honestly say I have never taken one of honestly say I have never taken one of those phone calls of people saying, you those phone calls of people saying, you those phone calls of people saying, you know, are you interested? know, are you interested? know, are you interested? » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Just not I mean, we we've we've got a » Just not I mean, we we've we've got a » Just not I mean, we we've we've got a long way to go in my mind. We've made a long way to go in my mind. We've made a long way to go in my mind. We've made a lot of progress, but we still have goals lot of progress, but we still have goals lot of progress, but we still have goals that uh that we want to achieve and that uh that we want to achieve and that uh that we want to achieve and we like we like touting the and we like we like touting the and we like we like touting the local card. I mean, that's local card. I mean, that's local card. I mean, that's important. It's this is at the end of important. It's this is at the end of important. It's this is at the end of the day the day the day » still very much a people business and uh » still very much a people business and uh » still very much a people business and uh that's that's been important for that's that's been important for that's that's been important for our growth. So yeah, um as as far as our growth. So yeah, um as as far as our growth. So yeah, um as as far as industry specific and uh or I should say industry specific and uh or I should say industry specific and uh or I should say demographic, you guys insure obviously demographic, you guys insure obviously demographic, you guys insure obviously outside of the state of Kansas, right? outside of the state of Kansas, right? outside of the state of Kansas, right? Um how much do people want you to know Um how much do people want you to know Um how much do people want you to know about their environment, right? So if about their environment, right? So if about their environment, right? So if they're in Boston they're in Boston they're in Boston » and you have no understanding of how » and you have no understanding of how » and you have no understanding of how property works there and you know I is property works there and you know I is property works there and you know I is that even a thing? I was curious about that even a thing? I was curious about that even a thing? I was curious about that the other day. Um when you go into that the other day. Um when you go into that the other day. Um when you go into other markets and ensure other markets and ensure other markets and ensure » Yeah. But I mean usually we're insuring » Yeah. But I mean usually we're insuring » Yeah. But I mean usually we're insuring you know in other states it's businesses you know in other states it's businesses you know in other states it's businesses or you know secondary homes things of or you know secondary homes things of or you know secondary homes things of that nature that nature that nature » but we're working with carriers that do » but we're working with carriers that do » but we're working with carriers that do business regularly in Boston or business regularly in Boston or business regularly in Boston or whatever. Um whatever. Um whatever. Um » to answer your question we so we have » to answer your question we so we have » to answer your question we so we have eight locations all in Kansas. Um, but eight locations all in Kansas. Um, but eight locations all in Kansas. Um, but we did business in we did business in we did business in 48 states last year. So, the only two we 48 states last year. So, the only two we 48 states last year. So, the only two we didn't have an active policy in last didn't have an active policy in last didn't have an active policy in last year were Hawaii and uh was either New year were Hawaii and uh was either New year were Hawaii and uh was either New York or New No, believe it or not. York or New No, believe it or not. York or New No, believe it or not. » I was going to say we have two large » I was going to say we have two large » I was going to say we have two large accounts in Alaska, believe it or not. accounts in Alaska, believe it or not. accounts in Alaska, believe it or not. Um, Um, Um, » and so, yeah, I mean, and they're » and so, yeah, I mean, and they're » and so, yeah, I mean, and they're they're big enough to where it makes they're big enough to where it makes they're big enough to where it makes sense to send a team of people up there sense to send a team of people up there sense to send a team of people up there every year to work on their renewal. Uh every year to work on their renewal. Uh every year to work on their renewal. Uh we we have a a relationship with a a we we have a a relationship with a a we we have a a relationship with a a window cleaning company that's based in window cleaning company that's based in window cleaning company that's based in St. Louis and they named us their St. Louis and they named us their St. Louis and they named us their primary broker basically. It doesn't primary broker basically. It doesn't primary broker basically. It doesn't mean that they have to use us but we're mean that they have to use us but we're mean that they have to use us but we're the only one that gets invited to their the only one that gets invited to their the only one that gets invited to their convention and so convention and so convention and so » is it a franchise? » is it a franchise? » is it a franchise? » It is. Cool. » It is. Cool. » It is. Cool. » Yeah, » Yeah, » Yeah, » that's awesome. That's that's a good » that's awesome. That's that's a good » that's awesome. That's that's a good partnership. good partnership. good partnership. » It it has been and that has driven a » It it has been and that has driven a » It it has been and that has driven a lot of our growth in states outside lot of our growth in states outside lot of our growth in states outside of Kansas. I mean, we we've always done of Kansas. I mean, we we've always done of Kansas. I mean, we we've always done business in, you know, I would say 30 to business in, you know, I would say 30 to business in, you know, I would say 30 to 40 states, but there are certain, 40 states, but there are certain, 40 states, but there are certain, you know, franchises that are popping up you know, franchises that are popping up you know, franchises that are popping up in, you know, oh, trying to think of a in, you know, oh, trying to think of a in, you know, oh, trying to think of a few of the states that we recently few of the states that we recently few of the states that we recently signed on with. Um, some in the upper signed on with. Um, some in the upper signed on with. Um, some in the upper northwest, but that had a lot northwest, but that had a lot northwest, but that had a lot to do with it, this franchise. to do with it, this franchise. to do with it, this franchise. » Yeah. Do you think the future of » Yeah. Do you think the future of » Yeah. Do you think the future of brokerages are niching down, getting brokerages are niching down, getting brokerages are niching down, getting really good at something that you can do really good at something that you can do really good at something that you can do for anyone anywhere, but it's really for anyone anywhere, but it's really for anyone anywhere, but it's really focused like that example? that's focused like that example? that's focused like that example? that's what they tell us is specialization is what they tell us is specialization is what they tell us is specialization is the way of the future. the way of the future. the way of the future. » I I think for a company like ours that » I I think for a company like ours that » I I think for a company like ours that got our start in Elder, Kansas, that got our start in Elder, Kansas, that got our start in Elder, Kansas, we are generalists by trade and we are generalists by trade and we are generalists by trade and I I don't know that's ever and I I don't know that's ever and I I don't know that's ever going to go away. I mean, we we have going to go away. I mean, we we have going to go away. I mean, we we have found some certain niches that we found some certain niches that we found some certain niches that we excel in, but we won't only, you know, excel in, but we won't only, you know, excel in, but we won't only, you know, ever only be able to write, you know, ever only be able to write, you know, ever only be able to write, you know, trucking or oil and gas. And I and I trucking or oil and gas. And I and I trucking or oil and gas. And I and I will mention we have we I I don't want will mention we have we I I don't want will mention we have we I I don't want to say we exited we were out of the oil to say we exited we were out of the oil to say we exited we were out of the oil and gas space for a long time. We have and gas space for a long time. We have and gas space for a long time. We have uh probably five six years ago started uh probably five six years ago started uh probably five six years ago started writing a lot of the top producers in writing a lot of the top producers in writing a lot of the top producers in the state and so oil and gas has become the state and so oil and gas has become the state and so oil and gas has become a big piece again of what we're doing a big piece again of what we're doing a big piece again of what we're doing today. So today. So today. So » interesting. Uh what's it look like » interesting. Uh what's it look like » interesting. Uh what's it look like for a young guy or somebody that works at a young guy or somebody that works at a young guy or somebody that works at another brokerage to become a broker? Do another brokerage to become a broker? Do another brokerage to become a broker? Do you think that's you think that's you think that's » Yeah. I mean, if there's 40,000 brokers, » Yeah. I mean, if there's 40,000 brokers, » Yeah. I mean, if there's 40,000 brokers, is there new brokers popping up every is there new brokers popping up every is there new brokers popping up every year still at a rapid rate? year still at a rapid rate? year still at a rapid rate? » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Is that hard to compete, I guess, if » Is that hard to compete, I guess, if » Is that hard to compete, I guess, if they have access to I'm assuming they have access to I'm assuming they have access to I'm assuming they won't have the same access you would won't have the same access you would won't have the same access you would have being established with carriers. have being established with carriers. have being established with carriers. » Um, » Um, » Um, » people starting their own agency. » people starting their own agency. » people starting their own agency. » Yeah. Yeah. Like what does that look » Yeah. Yeah. Like what does that look » Yeah. Yeah. Like what does that look like today versus 30 years ago? like today versus 30 years ago? like today versus 30 years ago? » Uh, I would say it's harder today to to » Uh, I would say it's harder today to to » Uh, I would say it's harder today to to start an agency from scratch. There's start an agency from scratch. There's start an agency from scratch. There's still obviously people doing it. you still obviously people doing it. you still obviously people doing it. you know, somebody that might have been know, somebody that might have been know, somebody that might have been with a big broker for a long time and with a big broker for a long time and with a big broker for a long time and built a big book and gets unhappy with built a big book and gets unhappy with built a big book and gets unhappy with new leadership or or whatever the case new leadership or or whatever the case new leadership or or whatever the case may be, they have a little easier time may be, they have a little easier time may be, they have a little easier time going to these carriers that they've going to these carriers that they've going to these carriers that they've been working with for 20 years and been working with for 20 years and been working with for 20 years and saying, saying, saying, "Hey, I wrote this x amount with you. I "Hey, I wrote this x amount with you. I "Hey, I wrote this x amount with you. I mean, I'm starting my own shop and I'm, mean, I'm starting my own shop and I'm, mean, I'm starting my own shop and I'm, you know, my non-competes up in two you know, my non-competes up in two you know, my non-competes up in two years." So, it it happens. I would say years." So, it it happens. I would say years." So, it it happens. I would say it's tougher, but the other key to it's tougher, but the other key to it's tougher, but the other key to market access is you have to have the market access is you have to have the market access is you have to have the volume to spread it around, right? So, volume to spread it around, right? So, volume to spread it around, right? So, it's not like, it's not like, it's not like, you know, Cincinnati insurance companies you know, Cincinnati insurance companies you know, Cincinnati insurance companies is going to come look for an agent that is going to come look for an agent that is going to come look for an agent that only has 500,000 in in annual premium only has 500,000 in in annual premium only has 500,000 in in annual premium because how much can you actually give because how much can you actually give because how much can you actually give to them, right? to them, right? to them, right? » Yeah, » Yeah, » Yeah, » that was a poor whatever example. » that was a poor whatever example. » that was a poor whatever example. doesn't have to be Cincinnati, but doesn't have to be Cincinnati, but doesn't have to be Cincinnati, but we we've been around long enough and we we've been around long enough and we we've been around long enough and have enough volume. Uh, you know, we're have enough volume. Uh, you know, we're have enough volume. Uh, you know, we're we're we're narrowing in on uh 100 we're we're narrowing in on uh 100 we're we're narrowing in on uh 100 million in written premium, which is million in written premium, which is million in written premium, which is wild to think about. I think we were wild to think about. I think we were wild to think about. I think we were » 20 or 21 when I 20 21 million when I » 20 or 21 when I 20 21 million when I » 20 or 21 when I 20 21 million when I started. So, uh to think we're going to started. So, uh to think we're going to started. So, uh to think we're going to probably eclipse 100 million this year probably eclipse 100 million this year probably eclipse 100 million this year is is uh pretty wild. is is uh pretty wild. is is uh pretty wild. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » But what that does is that makes us » But what that does is that makes us » But what that does is that makes us more attractive to to new markets. And more attractive to to new markets. And more attractive to to new markets. And we have about as many markets out there. we have about as many markets out there. we have about as many markets out there. I mean, there's maybe one or two that I I mean, there's maybe one or two that I I mean, there's maybe one or two that I can think of that we don't have that we can think of that we don't have that we can think of that we don't have that we that we'd want or could have, but most that we'd want or could have, but most that we'd want or could have, but most agencies don't have the number of most agencies don't have the number of most agencies don't have the number of options or markets that we do. options or markets that we do. options or markets that we do. » Yeah. What's the uh next five years » Yeah. What's the uh next five years » Yeah. What's the uh next five years in your mind? Is it the same focus on in your mind? Is it the same focus on in your mind? Is it the same focus on organic growth? organic growth? organic growth? » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Is it new markets? Is it finding new » Is it new markets? Is it finding new » Is it new markets? Is it finding new niches? niches? niches? I I think first and foremost it's I I think first and foremost it's I I think first and foremost it's finding new producers, new salespeople. finding new producers, new salespeople. finding new producers, new salespeople. We when we went to another symposium on We when we went to another symposium on We when we went to another symposium on hiring and retaining producers, they hiring and retaining producers, they hiring and retaining producers, they looked at our numbers and size they looked at our numbers and size they looked at our numbers and size and growth rate and goals and they said and growth rate and goals and they said and growth rate and goals and they said we need to hire um we need to hire um we need to hire um 22 producers next year because the 22 producers next year because the 22 producers next year because the success rate in our industry is only success rate in our industry is only success rate in our industry is only 52%. So it's it's a coin toss. Uh, 52%. So it's it's a coin toss. Uh, 52%. So it's it's a coin toss. Uh, » so you need 10 good producers. So we » so you need 10 good producers. So we » so you need 10 good producers. So we need to get we need to hire 20. need to get we need to hire 20. need to get we need to hire 20. » Well, we we can't do that. Uh, so I'm » Well, we we can't do that. Uh, so I'm » Well, we we can't do that. Uh, so I'm not going to commit to that, but I will not going to commit to that, but I will not going to commit to that, but I will commit to hiring, you know, two or three commit to hiring, you know, two or three commit to hiring, you know, two or three a year. And so we've been working. We've a year. And so we've been working. We've a year. And so we've been working. We've actually been recruiting some colleges actually been recruiting some colleges actually been recruiting some colleges trying to find somewhere we can get a trying to find somewhere we can get a trying to find somewhere we can get a steady pipeline where we can easily add steady pipeline where we can easily add steady pipeline where we can easily add two or three people, producers a year. two or three people, producers a year. two or three people, producers a year. And then as far as niches, And then as far as niches, And then as far as niches, because we have access to so many because we have access to so many because we have access to so many different carriers that can write so different carriers that can write so different carriers that can write so many different things, when we're many different things, when we're many different things, when we're interviewing these producers, we'll say interviewing these producers, we'll say interviewing these producers, we'll say you can really go chase whatever you can really go chase whatever you can really go chase whatever you want. We're encouraging them want. We're encouraging them want. We're encouraging them to specialize. So if you only want to to specialize. So if you only want to to specialize. So if you only want to work with, you know, work with, you know, work with, you know, » dirt contractors, if that's your speed, » dirt contractors, if that's your speed, » dirt contractors, if that's your speed, or you only want to work with a certain or you only want to work with a certain or you only want to work with a certain industry, industry, industry, » then we encourage them to build that » then we encourage them to build that » then we encourage them to build that niche. niche. niche. » So I never thought about that » So I never thought about that » So I never thought about that diversification for you could be diversification for you could be diversification for you could be producers that are specialized. Right. producers that are specialized. Right. producers that are specialized. Right. Right. that and that adds a lot of Right. that and that adds a lot of Right. that and that adds a lot of value to your brand. Yeah. Just saying value to your brand. Yeah. Just saying value to your brand. Yeah. Just saying we've got a guy for that. we've got a guy for that. we've got a guy for that. » Yeah. We have I mean the window » Yeah. We have I mean the window » Yeah. We have I mean the window cleaning program I talked about that's cleaning program I talked about that's cleaning program I talked about that's that's one guy and a team of you know I that's one guy and a team of you know I that's one guy and a team of you know I think it's four people in Witchah that think it's four people in Witchah that think it's four people in Witchah that basically manage that whole program. And basically manage that whole program. And basically manage that whole program. And then we've got you know one producer who then we've got you know one producer who then we've got you know one producer who does really well in the oil and gas does really well in the oil and gas does really well in the oil and gas space. Uh I write a lot in the oil and space. Uh I write a lot in the oil and space. Uh I write a lot in the oil and gas space. gas space. gas space. » Um you know we've got a producer that » Um you know we've got a producer that » Um you know we've got a producer that does a lot of senior living facilities. does a lot of senior living facilities. does a lot of senior living facilities. So, um, assisted living facilities, So, um, assisted living facilities, So, um, assisted living facilities, skilled nursing facilities, things of skilled nursing facilities, things of skilled nursing facilities, things of that nature. So, yeah, you can choose that nature. So, yeah, you can choose that nature. So, yeah, you can choose your own destiny, so to speak. Um, your own destiny, so to speak. Um, your own destiny, so to speak. Um, » that's a tough gig. I mean, I » that's a tough gig. I mean, I » that's a tough gig. I mean, I go to a lot of networking events and, go to a lot of networking events and, go to a lot of networking events and, uh, the I feel like realer, insurance uh, the I feel like realer, insurance uh, the I feel like realer, insurance agent, financial advisor, right? You go agent, financial advisor, right? You go agent, financial advisor, right? You go to any type of meeting or network, to any type of meeting or network, to any type of meeting or network, they're all there and there's just this they're all there and there's just this they're all there and there's just this awkwardness in the room. You're like, awkwardness in the room. You're like, awkwardness in the room. You're like, "But I'm buddies with him and like, but "But I'm buddies with him and like, but "But I'm buddies with him and like, but I like you." And the relational dynamic I like you." And the relational dynamic I like you." And the relational dynamic of that, it's probably not ever changed. of that, it's probably not ever changed. of that, it's probably not ever changed. It's still the same thing of building It's still the same thing of building It's still the same thing of building trust. Um, but what how does trust. Um, but what how does trust. Um, but what how does someone that just has always seemed like someone that just has always seemed like someone that just has always seemed like a daunting task to start from nothing a daunting task to start from nothing a daunting task to start from nothing and go uh because you're essentially and go uh because you're essentially and go uh because you're essentially building your own business. I mean, a building your own business. I mean, a building your own business. I mean, a realtor, financial adviser, and an realtor, financial adviser, and an realtor, financial adviser, and an insurance producer. You're basically insurance producer. You're basically insurance producer. You're basically self-employed. You have a lot of self-employed. You have a lot of self-employed. You have a lot of backing. Um, but what's your best backing. Um, but what's your best backing. Um, but what's your best advice for someone out there right now advice for someone out there right now advice for someone out there right now that's that's that's » just a now a new producer? It's » just a now a new producer? It's » just a now a new producer? It's daunting. They go to networking events daunting. They go to networking events daunting. They go to networking events and they feel like uh, you know, they're and they feel like uh, you know, they're and they feel like uh, you know, they're a they're a hawk and everybody's trying a they're a hawk and everybody's trying a they're a hawk and everybody's trying to avoid them and yeah, they're hunting. to avoid them and yeah, they're hunting. to avoid them and yeah, they're hunting. » One of the things we encourage our new » One of the things we encourage our new » One of the things we encourage our new people to do is to choose an association people to do is to choose an association people to do is to choose an association and be be regular there. go to every and be be regular there. go to every and be be regular there. go to every event, have a booth, so they see you event, have a booth, so they see you event, have a booth, so they see you more than once because most people more than once because most people more than once because most people aren't going to switch to you the first aren't going to switch to you the first aren't going to switch to you the first time they meet you. time they meet you. time they meet you. » It's it's a lot about timing. You know, » It's it's a lot about timing. You know, » It's it's a lot about timing. You know, they you know, you could have been they you know, you could have been they you know, you could have been my insurance agent for 15 years. Well, my insurance agent for 15 years. Well, my insurance agent for 15 years. Well, if you sell and I don't have a if you sell and I don't have a if you sell and I don't have a relationship with anybody else in your relationship with anybody else in your relationship with anybody else in your uh your firm, uh your firm, uh your firm, » yeah, » yeah, » yeah, » I might not have been planning to change » I might not have been planning to change » I might not have been planning to change insurance agents, but now I need to. And insurance agents, but now I need to. And insurance agents, but now I need to. And so, a lot of people don't know when so, a lot of people don't know when so, a lot of people don't know when they're going to need a new insurance they're going to need a new insurance they're going to need a new insurance agent. So, you just kind of have to stay agent. So, you just kind of have to stay agent. So, you just kind of have to stay in front of them, stay active. You know, in front of them, stay active. You know, in front of them, stay active. You know, unfortunately, nobody likes doing cold unfortunately, nobody likes doing cold unfortunately, nobody likes doing cold calling, but getting started, that's calling, but getting started, that's calling, but getting started, that's that's you got to do a lot of that's you got to do a lot of that's you got to do a lot of that because there aren't a lot of people because there aren't a lot of people because there aren't a lot of people that are that are that are » taking meetings with you when you're » taking meetings with you when you're » taking meetings with you when you're brand new to the business. So, um but brand new to the business. So, um but brand new to the business. So, um but as you grow your book of business but as you grow your book of business but as you grow your book of business and as you get involved in associations, and as you get involved in associations, and as you get involved in associations, referrals start coming and you don't referrals start coming and you don't referrals start coming and you don't have to pound the phones quite as hard have to pound the phones quite as hard have to pound the phones quite as hard as you did in the first two or three as you did in the first two or three as you did in the first two or three years. But the first three years are years. But the first three years are years. But the first three years are incredibly difficult and as I incredibly difficult and as I incredibly difficult and as I mentioned, it's it's a 52% success mentioned, it's it's a 52% success mentioned, it's it's a 52% success rates. And and that's nationwide. So, I rates. And and that's nationwide. So, I rates. And and that's nationwide. So, I mean, that's that doesn't matter if mean, that's that doesn't matter if mean, that's that doesn't matter if you're a small agency or one of the you're a small agency or one of the you're a small agency or one of the biggest brokers in the country. biggest brokers in the country. biggest brokers in the country. » There there's no secret sauce. I mean, » There there's no secret sauce. I mean, » There there's no secret sauce. I mean, ultimately, you're either going to work ultimately, you're either going to work ultimately, you're either going to work or you're not. or you're not. or you're not. » Yeah, » Yeah, » Yeah, » that's good advice. Uh associations. I » that's good advice. Uh associations. I » that's good advice. Uh associations. I just joined BNI and I've avoided it like just joined BNI and I've avoided it like just joined BNI and I've avoided it like the plague for 13 years and uh it's a the plague for 13 years and uh it's a the plague for 13 years and uh it's a lot though been there for 6 months. Uh lot though been there for 6 months. Uh lot though been there for 6 months. Uh but I will say 6 months later it's but I will say 6 months later it's but I will say 6 months later it's really fun. I'm not worried about really fun. I'm not worried about really fun. I'm not worried about selling anything and I wasn't really day selling anything and I wasn't really day selling anything and I wasn't really day one. one. one. » Uh but the consistency the networks that » Uh but the consistency the networks that » Uh but the consistency the networks that it does provide even just 6 months later it does provide even just 6 months later it does provide even just 6 months later of just of just of just » being a value ad and uh being there to » being a value ad and uh being there to » being a value ad and uh being there to help people I think is uh and giving help people I think is uh and giving help people I think is uh and giving them business. I think if you give if if them business. I think if you give if if them business. I think if you give if if you refer other people stuff that don't you refer other people stuff that don't you refer other people stuff that don't work with you that speaks volumes you work with you that speaks volumes you work with you that speaks volumes you know so those that's really good advice know so those that's really good advice know so those that's really good advice though finding associations though finding associations though finding associations chambers BNI's rotaries you know I found chambers BNI's rotaries you know I found chambers BNI's rotaries you know I found for me personally some of the things for me personally some of the things for me personally some of the things that I participated in or really didn't that I participated in or really didn't that I participated in or really didn't expect a a return on you know ROI for expect a a return on you know ROI for expect a a return on you know ROI for business so to speak I mean Leadership business so to speak I mean Leadership business so to speak I mean Leadership Kansas I did that program through the Kansas I did that program through the Kansas I did that program through the chamber and that led to some really good chamber and that led to some really good chamber and that led to some really good clients for me I mean some of my clients for me I mean some of my clients for me I mean some of my best and largest. Actually, I never best and largest. Actually, I never best and largest. Actually, I never joined Leadership Kansas thinking, "Oh, joined Leadership Kansas thinking, "Oh, joined Leadership Kansas thinking, "Oh, I'm going to write a bunch of big I'm going to write a bunch of big I'm going to write a bunch of big accounts by doing this." Um, you know, accounts by doing this." Um, you know, accounts by doing this." Um, you know, YPO is a networking group I'm a part of YPO is a networking group I'm a part of YPO is a networking group I'm a part of in Witchah and that has opened a lot of in Witchah and that has opened a lot of in Witchah and that has opened a lot of doors for me. And actually in YPO, they doors for me. And actually in YPO, they doors for me. And actually in YPO, they encourage you not to do business they encourage you not to do business they encourage you not to do business with other members. with other members. with other members. » But then they ultimately say it's up to » But then they ultimately say it's up to » But then they ultimately say it's up to you and uh so that's resulted you and uh so that's resulted you and uh so that's resulted in some really good relationships, in some really good relationships, in some really good relationships, business relationships. Um business relationships. Um business relationships. Um so yeah just being active you know so yeah just being active you know so yeah just being active you know the days of the 8 to5 you know and a the days of the 8 to5 you know and a the days of the 8 to5 you know and a lot of the next generation wants to talk lot of the next generation wants to talk lot of the next generation wants to talk about work life balance and about work life balance and about work life balance and the reality is if you're not putting in the reality is if you're not putting in the reality is if you're not putting in long hours early in your career long hours early in your career long hours early in your career » you're not going to grow as fast as » you're not going to grow as fast as » you're not going to grow as fast as those that are. So those that are. So those that are. So » you might be on the wrong side of that » you might be on the wrong side of that » you might be on the wrong side of that 50% success rate. 50% success rate. 50% success rate. » Exactly. » Exactly. » Exactly. I don't know if you've seen this guy. I don't know if you've seen this guy. I don't know if you've seen this guy. He's one of my favorite follows He's one of my favorite follows He's one of my favorite follows on Instagram. Uh but he records his live on Instagram. Uh but he records his live on Instagram. Uh but he records his live cold calling of life insurance cold calling of life insurance cold calling of life insurance » and he's like Italian or something, but » and he's like Italian or something, but » and he's like Italian or something, but » uh he's hilarious. I mean, he just goes » uh he's hilarious. I mean, he just goes » uh he's hilarious. I mean, he just goes right in. So, I don't know how he's right in. So, I don't know how he's right in. So, I don't know how he's getting this lead list, but he just getting this lead list, but he just getting this lead list, but he just dials them up and he records the whole dials them up and he records the whole dials them up and he records the whole thing and he gets rejected non-stop. And thing and he gets rejected non-stop. And thing and he gets rejected non-stop. And every time he gets rejected, they hang every time he gets rejected, they hang every time he gets rejected, they hang up. He might say something inappropriate up. He might say something inappropriate up. He might say something inappropriate really loud and he just starts the music really loud and he just starts the music really loud and he just starts the music and he just starts dancing. Like he just and he just starts dancing. Like he just and he just starts dancing. Like he just starts dancing. He'll dance for like 15 starts dancing. He'll dance for like 15 starts dancing. He'll dance for like 15 seconds, videos done, and then he'll seconds, videos done, and then he'll seconds, videos done, and then he'll publish some videos of him actually publish some videos of him actually publish some videos of him actually getting some wins, but majority of his getting some wins, but majority of his getting some wins, but majority of his content's just hilarious denial. And content's just hilarious denial. And content's just hilarious denial. And » you'll have to send that to me. » you'll have to send that to me. » you'll have to send that to me. » I will. He's like blowing up. And he » I will. He's like blowing up. And he » I will. He's like blowing up. And he just did a podcast. Uh, and I'll go find just did a podcast. Uh, and I'll go find just did a podcast. Uh, and I'll go find his podcast, but he's like blowing up his podcast, but he's like blowing up his podcast, but he's like blowing up right now. He's like people are just right now. He's like people are just right now. He's like people are just because of my content, they're just because of my content, they're just because of my content, they're reaching out all the time just buying reaching out all the time just buying reaching out all the time just buying life insurance policies from him. and life insurance policies from him. and life insurance policies from him. and he's like 22 years old, 21 and uh just he's like 22 years old, 21 and uh just he's like 22 years old, 21 and uh just yeah, it's it's all a content game which yeah, it's it's all a content game which yeah, it's it's all a content game which is pretty is pretty is pretty » life insurance is tough. That's a real » life insurance is tough. That's a real » life insurance is tough. That's a real tough uh tough uh tough uh » I would piece of especially cold calling » I would piece of especially cold calling » I would piece of especially cold calling I would imagine. Like that's that's a I would imagine. Like that's that's a I would imagine. Like that's that's a call I would never take. call I would never take. call I would never take. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Yeah. » Uh like that just seems like and he's » Uh like that just seems like and he's » Uh like that just seems like and he's like getting their info over the phone. like getting their info over the phone. like getting their info over the phone. » Like I mean on first calls they're like » Like I mean on first calls they're like » Like I mean on first calls they're like giving him bank account information. giving him bank account information. giving him bank account information. It's crazy. It's crazy. It's crazy. » Gosh. » Gosh. » Gosh. » I don't know how that works. uh seems » I don't know how that works. uh seems » I don't know how that works. uh seems super sketchy, but good on him. Like, super sketchy, but good on him. Like, super sketchy, but good on him. Like, and he'll post his commission payout on and he'll post his commission payout on and he'll post his commission payout on each video. He'll actually put it on the each video. He'll actually put it on the each video. He'll actually put it on the screen. So, he's basically just screen. So, he's basically just screen. So, he's basically just essentially, what do you call that? Uh essentially, what do you call that? Uh essentially, what do you call that? Uh uh public building. He's essentially, uh public building. He's essentially, uh public building. He's essentially, they call that content style public they call that content style public they call that content style public building of what he's doing. And uh I building of what he's doing. And uh I building of what he's doing. And uh I enjoy I enjoy that follow. Um, well, one enjoy I enjoy that follow. Um, well, one enjoy I enjoy that follow. Um, well, one last question for you and uh then we can last question for you and uh then we can last question for you and uh then we can end on end on end on » uh something nice. But uh to respect » uh something nice. But uh to respect » uh something nice. But uh to respect your time, what I think a good nugget your time, what I think a good nugget your time, what I think a good nugget for people listening to this, you've for people listening to this, you've for people listening to this, you've done six acquisitions in eight years. Um done six acquisitions in eight years. Um done six acquisitions in eight years. Um which is really interesting. What's which is really interesting. What's which is really interesting. What's your best piece of advice on what you've your best piece of advice on what you've your best piece of advice on what you've learned after six acquisitions about learned after six acquisitions about learned after six acquisitions about approaching an acquisition? approaching an acquisition? approaching an acquisition? » About approaching it. Yeah. Like no. and » About approaching it. Yeah. Like no. and » About approaching it. Yeah. Like no. and the whole thing is this the right and the whole thing is this the right and the whole thing is this the right one. one. one. » How do we structure it? Like as much as » How do we structure it? Like as much as » How do we structure it? Like as much as you want to share, as little as you want you want to share, as little as you want you want to share, as little as you want to share, but to share, but to share, but » I'm sure they were all structured a » I'm sure they were all structured a » I'm sure they were all structured a little differently. little differently. little differently. » It's about building teams. And I talked » It's about building teams. And I talked » It's about building teams. And I talked about my internal team a little bit ago, about my internal team a little bit ago, about my internal team a little bit ago, and I'll get back to them in a second, and I'll get back to them in a second, and I'll get back to them in a second, but I built a team of advisors that but I built a team of advisors that but I built a team of advisors that consisted of, you know, a CPA that could consisted of, you know, a CPA that could consisted of, you know, a CPA that could basically do the projections for me to basically do the projections for me to basically do the projections for me to tell me if it was going to work. You got tell me if it was going to work. You got tell me if it was going to work. You got to get a good banker. our banker is to get a good banker. our banker is to get a good banker. our banker is is very good and very in tune with what is very good and very in tune with what is very good and very in tune with what we're doing and has offered good we're doing and has offered good we're doing and has offered good advice for us. Um, good advice for us. Um, good advice for us. Um, I approached some people in the I approached some people in the I approached some people in the industry, uh, other lenders who industry, uh, other lenders who industry, uh, other lenders who don't who we've never borrowed from, but don't who we've never borrowed from, but don't who we've never borrowed from, but they see a lot of deals. And so, um, they see a lot of deals. And so, um, they see a lot of deals. And so, um, I've asked her to to help us on certain I've asked her to to help us on certain I've asked her to to help us on certain deals, some consultants. And so, deals, some consultants. And so, deals, some consultants. And so, typically, every time I find a deal, I typically, every time I find a deal, I typically, every time I find a deal, I do all the numbers first. And I' I'd do all the numbers first. And I' I'd do all the numbers first. And I' I'd like to think that I typically have a like to think that I typically have a like to think that I typically have a pretty good idea if it's going to go or pretty good idea if it's going to go or pretty good idea if it's going to go or not, but then I send it to them and say, not, but then I send it to them and say, not, but then I send it to them and say, "What do you guys see?" and I'm "What do you guys see?" and I'm "What do you guys see?" and I'm really just looking for validation. Um, really just looking for validation. Um, really just looking for validation. Um, most of the time I I follow their most of the time I I follow their most of the time I I follow their advice. advice. advice. » Sure. » Sure. » Sure. » But then you got to have a great » But then you got to have a great » But then you got to have a great team on the back end. I mean, I I think team on the back end. I mean, I I think team on the back end. I mean, I I think about our first acquisitions that we about our first acquisitions that we about our first acquisitions that we did. I mean, and I was in on every call did. I mean, and I was in on every call did. I mean, and I was in on every call about the data management or conversion about the data management or conversion about the data management or conversion and in on everything. And now I find one and in on everything. And now I find one and in on everything. And now I find one and I hand it off to my team and I hand it off to my team and I hand it off to my team and they basically take the ball and they basically take the ball and they basically take the ball and run and do the integration. run and do the integration. run and do the integration. » Yeah. It's it's uh again after the » Yeah. It's it's uh again after the » Yeah. It's it's uh again after the sixth one they pretty much know sixth one they pretty much know sixth one they pretty much know what to do when I come and say all what to do when I come and say all what to do when I come and say all right we're we're looking at XYZ agency right we're we're looking at XYZ agency right we're we're looking at XYZ agency in in in this town or whatever. So in in in this town or whatever. So in in in this town or whatever. So » uh on the evaluation is there a pretty » uh on the evaluation is there a pretty » uh on the evaluation is there a pretty consistent uh formula in your industry consistent uh formula in your industry consistent uh formula in your industry that makes that a little easier or is it that makes that a little easier or is it that makes that a little easier or is it pretty different every time? pretty different every time? pretty different every time? It's I would say for larger agencies It's I would say for larger agencies It's I would say for larger agencies it's an IBIDA multiple on on smaller it's an IBIDA multiple on on smaller it's an IBIDA multiple on on smaller agencies it's um they don't really have agencies it's um they don't really have agencies it's um they don't really have IBIDA so it's it's sometimes a a revenue IBIDA so it's it's sometimes a a revenue IBIDA so it's it's sometimes a a revenue multiple I I would say the revenue multiple I I would say the revenue multiple I I would say the revenue multiple is usually somewhere between multiple is usually somewhere between multiple is usually somewhere between two and three times commission and on two and three times commission and on two and three times commission and on the IBIDA multiple it's anywhere from I the IBIDA multiple it's anywhere from I the IBIDA multiple it's anywhere from I don't know 8 to 14 I mean and I've don't know 8 to 14 I mean and I've don't know 8 to 14 I mean and I've thankfully never had to pay 14 but thankfully never had to pay 14 but thankfully never had to pay 14 but that's what some of the big players that's what some of the big players that's what some of the big players are paying. So, players are paying. So, players are paying. So, » so there's some Yeah, there's some » so there's some Yeah, there's some » so there's some Yeah, there's some metric. metric. metric. » I look at it and try to assess what » I look at it and try to assess what » I look at it and try to assess what the cash flow will be after we do our the cash flow will be after we do our the cash flow will be after we do our adbacks and, you know, factor in the adbacks and, you know, factor in the adbacks and, you know, factor in the debt service that we'll have and as debt service that we'll have and as debt service that we'll have and as long as it's not going to be a a net long as it's not going to be a a net long as it's not going to be a a net negative cash flow, it it uh so far it negative cash flow, it it uh so far it negative cash flow, it it uh so far it seemed to work okay. seemed to work okay. seemed to work okay. » Yeah. Yeah. No, that's good. Yeah. » Yeah. Yeah. No, that's good. Yeah. » Yeah. Yeah. No, that's good. Yeah. Having a team uh consultants, people Having a team uh consultants, people Having a team uh consultants, people specialize in different aspects of a specialize in different aspects of a specialize in different aspects of a transaction makes a lot of sense and transaction makes a lot of sense and transaction makes a lot of sense and that's that's hard to find. Uh but once that's that's hard to find. Uh but once that's that's hard to find. Uh but once you probably build relationships and you probably build relationships and you probably build relationships and then a team to the integration alone is then a team to the integration alone is then a team to the integration alone is the nightmare to me like just the nightmare to me like just the nightmare to me like just integrating your two it the integration integrating your two it the integration integrating your two it the integration is very difficult and we've gotten is very difficult and we've gotten is very difficult and we've gotten to a point where we're probably getting to a point where we're probably getting to a point where we're probably getting a little more selective on the types of a little more selective on the types of a little more selective on the types of acquisitions that we want. they acquisitions that we want. they acquisitions that we want. they have to they have to align pretty well have to they have to align pretty well have to they have to align pretty well in order for them to make sense for us in order for them to make sense for us in order for them to make sense for us because you know we can go by you know because you know we can go by you know because you know we can go by you know an agency that has 500,000 to a million an agency that has 500,000 to a million an agency that has 500,000 to a million in revenue but I mean we are we're in revenue but I mean we are we're in revenue but I mean we are we're already doing that already doing that already doing that » on an organic growth and so it's like » on an organic growth and so it's like » on an organic growth and so it's like how hard do you want to work how hard do you want to work how hard do you want to work » you know so it it has to be over a » you know so it it has to be over a » you know so it it has to be over a certain size now for us to say all right certain size now for us to say all right certain size now for us to say all right this is this is this is » strategic location goes into it as well » strategic location goes into it as well » strategic location goes into it as well » geography is is important for us too I » geography is is important for us too I » geography is is important for us too I mean So mean So mean So » that's awesome. Well, appreciate you and » that's awesome. Well, appreciate you and » that's awesome. Well, appreciate you and everything you do for our community and everything you do for our community and everything you do for our community and uh yeah, your family. Way to keep your uh yeah, your family. Way to keep your uh yeah, your family. Way to keep your family's legacy moving forward. And family's legacy moving forward. And family's legacy moving forward. And » um yeah, glad. » um yeah, glad. » um yeah, glad. » Community is important. My dad always » Community is important. My dad always » Community is important. My dad always used to tell me, you got to take care of used to tell me, you got to take care of used to tell me, you got to take care of the people who take care of you. So, the people who take care of you. So, the people who take care of you. So, » for sure. But thanks for your time, » for sure. But thanks for your time, » for sure. But thanks for your time, dude. dude. dude. » Absolutely. » Absolutely. » Absolutely. » You've been awesome. Okay. And you » You've been awesome. Okay. And you » You've been awesome. Okay. And you didn't even cough that bad. You're didn't even cough that bad. You're didn't even cough that bad. You're worried about that cough. I think you worried about that cough. I think you worried about that cough. I think you coughed like one time. I know what you coughed like one time. I know what you coughed like one time. I know what you did. did. did. » Maybe on the tail end of it. So, » Maybe on the tail end of it. So, » Maybe on the tail end of it. So, » appreciate you. Thank you. ---